Zelda Wiki

OoT Navi.png

Hey! Listen!

This wiki contains spoilers! Read at your own risk!

READ MORE

Zelda Wiki
Advertisement
Zelda Wiki
10,148
pages

You know, I actually think that this explains quite a bit. Good read, nice job. --69.68.139.225 22:16, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Thanks! It's really good to receive input from others, especially such positive comments! I'm very glad that it makes sense for you, it's something I feel really strongly about. Thank you!!--Sagasaki 22:53, 26 January 2007 (CST)
Sweet, glad you guys got this worked out. Do you mind if we discuss/debate the article content here on the talk page? --PIE
But of course! Feel free!--Sagasaki 00:27, 27 January 2007 (CST)
Schweet. Starting with the background stuff;

On the Argument content

PIE

  • For sake of my argument, have you played or familiarised yourself with AoL? AlttP?
  • In the Background History section, you suggest that most of the characters in most Zelda games are Hylian. This is not the case. By AlttP, the Hylains are long gone. ("Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land..."), the subsequent games chronologically (LA, LoZ, AoL, and OoX) do not even make mention of Hylians and cannot possibly contain them. TMC is quite specifically about "men" (the term "Hylian" is never used, "man" is instead, and the "Hero of Man" is an important background character), FS and FSA follow chronologically and, similarily, make no mention of Hylians.
  • In the section "The Legend of Zelda", you suggest that the series is so named to emphasize Zelda's role. That is incorrect. The series is named for the Backstory of AoL, begun "Link, the time has come when I must tell you the legend of Zelda handed down in Hyrule."

Sagasaki

Thanks for the argument! I'll see what I can do to hold my own :P

First of all, I did not state that the Hylians were the most common people, I simply stated that they were the most important. I know for a fact that they are often rare, but important nonetheless. And as to your quote:

(The series is named for the Backstory of AoL, begun 'Link, the time has come when I must tell you the legend of Zelda handed down in Hyrule.')

you state that Legend of Zelda was named for AoL, correct? How can that be true if the "Legend of Zelda", the very first game, was named and created before the Adventure of Link? And the 'legend of Zelda' is a legend concerning Zelda, is it not? If it wasn't, then why would the legend have the name Zelda in it?

Again, thanks for your argument, I'm glad that people are expressing their opinions!

PIE

In a strange move we have not seen from Nintendo since the late 80s, the story of LoZ was planned to include a sequel (AoL). The state of the Triforce in LoZ was unexplainable until AoL, the lack of the Triforce of Courage was unexplainable ntil AoL, the inclusion of Impa in the LoZ story was unexplainable until AoL, etc.

The "Legend of Zelda", as a Legend, is about the actual name Zelda, and why it was originally important in Hyrule. It was an essential plot element in the early games, one they chose to name the series after (As other games Nintendo of the time, ie Metroid, were named for plot elements).

As to the Hylains... now I'm confused as to the devlopment of your debate. Why did you mention the Hylians?

Sagasaki

For starters, I mentioned the Hylians because you did originally in your second point. And now I'm confused as to your development. You said "The "Legend of Zelda", as a Legend, is about the actual name Zelda, and why it was originally important in Hyrule." Well, where, in fact, did that name, Zelda, come from? It wasn't just a name randomly picked and chosen, it was based on the name of a character. And, if you don't mind, re-read "the Legend of Zelda" section, as I have added two more cited sources. The character of Zelda was named after the name of an actress, which also then named the series, says Miyamoto (the games ultimate creator). Also, you stated points about the Triforce and Impa. Isn't that going just a bit off topic, as I have never mentioned any of these in my article.--Sagasaki 12:29, 28 January 2007 (CST)

PIE

I meant to inquire why you added discussion of the Hylains into your article at all. I don't understand why they're imortant to your theroy if you know that not every Zelda/not every Link has been Hylian.

I mentioned Impa and the Triforce to show the plaaning involved in LoZ storylines, showing that a sequel had alwasys been intended and planned for. Which explains how LoZ could have been given the name of an AoL plot device.

Answers.com is not a canonical source. Its not valid in argument. Yes, I know the Miyamato named his princess after F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife; He took a name; asked a character on that name, based a Legend on that character, and then named the series after the Legend. No part of this process suggests the series was named to highlight a special role of the Zelda character.

Sagasaki

Ok, first of all, Link and Zelda, every one, are Hylian. We know this. If you want to dispute that, then don't argue at all. Even this Wiki states that every Link is Hylian ("In all games, Link is a Hylian, and, due to that, appears as a young man with pointed ears. He generally has the Triforce mark on the back of his left-hand. [1]".) and every Zelda is Hylian (http://www.zeldawiki.org/index.php?title=Princess_Zelda). I don't know where you got the idea that they were not. And then, your quote you made contradicts even yourself. You state:

"He took a name; asked a character on that name, based a Legend on that character, and then named the series after the Legend. No part of this process suggests the series was named to highlight a special role of the Zelda character."

Well, what you just said was that he based a Legend on Zelda, and named the series after that legend. Putting it together, that's saying he named the series after Zelda's legend. So how is it that the seriese is not highlighting Zelda's character? And who is in each game? Zelda. Who does Link attempt to save nearly every single game? Zelda. And so why are you so against the fact that the series may be named after her? And to tie all that together, what on earth does this have to do with the relationship of Link and Zelda? Keep in mind, it's not completely the character that is choosing the story, it is Miyamoto, the man behind the legend. You really think he has some other girl than Zelda in mind for Link, even if it dosen't show? Anyway, thats all I have tonight. Thanks for contributing! --Sagasaki 22:43, 28 January 2007 (CST)

PIE

Please stop using wikis as evidence. They are not sources of Canon. According to AlttP; "Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land...". The Hylains have died out by ALttP; thge Zelda of AlttP is not Hylains. Neither is the Link.

I never said that Zelda was unimportant to the series; I simply argued against your statent (in the article) that Zelda's importance was the reason fro the title. Yu made a false statemnt (unrelated to your main argument, but a false statement none the less) and I though to repare it.

I am not yet arguing against your ideas on the Link and Zelda relationship; I am aonly arguing against the minor errors you made in your devlopment. I have no grand purpose agianst your theory itself.

Sagasaki

Anyone care to step in? I've personally never seen a human Link or Zelda, or any other race of them for that matter. They always have the pointy Hylian ears, and even Miyamoto has stated that they are all Hylian... and if you honestly believe that the game is not named after Zelda, then I have no more argument for you. That is simply rediclous, and i'm sure there are others that would agree. So, lets try and keep the debate towards the relationships then. --71.110.12.2 07:43, 29 January 2007 (CST)

PIE

Hylians have Pointy ears. That does not, in any way, mean that everyone with point ears is Hylian. Canonical statements are more important then your interpretation of visuals and ALttP (which has a Link and has a Zelda) stats that the Hylians have died out. Regardless of what any wiki says, this is a closed case... And not that a Miyamoto quote would matter in this case... but can you prove he said that?

Now then... Public opinion on the Zelda situation is as split as we are, (polls) so I'll drop the case...

Arcene

Yeah, I'm also from Twilight Plains, but pay no mind to that. I'm here to discuss, not play favorites :)

So anyway, it seems as though both of you are arguing that the story was named after Zelda because of her importance or the legend of Zelda as mentioned in AoL, correct? It would seem to make sense that the named person has significance in the story, especially if it was named after their (meaning every Zelda's) legend. As we have seen, AoL cleared up the issues of all the different Zeldas and why they were all there. "Moreover [AoL] gives cause for all of the princesses being named Zelda. A Zelda of many generations before was put to sleep for her transgressions against the King by hiding the triforce, so the prince decreed that all princesses of the realm would carry the name Zelda." That is stated on many sites, but I got that specific quote from here: [2] I'm not saying it's the most valid source, but there you are, and if you're really dying to tell me that any and all Zeldas do not carry a legend, go do some research. Anyway. That's not important.

My next point is to bring up the first name that the original Legend of Zelda was known by -- Zelda no Densetsu: The Hyrule Fantasy. Densetsu translates to Legend in Japanese, so it was still known as the Legend of Zelda. That might not seem very relevant, but it will stop some arguments from ever starting. :) Obviously, Zelda played an important role in the first Legend of Zelda. Since we have no confirmed evidence that the creators were indeed thinking of AoL as they were titling the first LoZ, I can't say for sure that they had all of their continuity figured out. At the time, Miyamoto probably thought that he would just name the franchise Zelda no Densetsu and be finished with it, but when he thought of continuing the franchise, he must have considered adding other characters. PIE said that in AoL it was stated that the story would be related as the Legend of Zelda. Well, there's always going to be a Zelda, and she obviously had some importance in the past at that point, so why shouldn't the series emphasize her role? My opinion is that yes, the series is named for Zelda and her importance to the series, whether it is the Legend of the Zeldas that are always around whether Link is helping them or not, or whether it's because Link and Zelda are always meant to be. Link and Zelda do have a special bond in many of the games, not necessarily because it's romantic or anything, but because he is always the Hero of Time and she is always the damsel in distress. Hero saves damsel, end of story. That does not mean that every Link and every Zelda will get together, although that is a nice thought.

Well, I hope that held some semblance of logic... It's already become confusing, but please, feel free to prove me wrong. I would love to see some solid evidence so we can finish this once and for all :) Thanks.

P.S. In response to saying that not all pointy-eared characters are Hylians... I agree, but I believe that Link and Zelda are always Hylian. See here: "The Royal Family and the bloodline of the Hero are always Hylian, suggesting truth in the claims of Hylian's possessing powers. While blood may be passed from generation to generation, languages are lost, and Hylian from Pre-Flood Hyrule is one such language that suffers at the hands of time." Taken from: [3]

In OoT, Link was the ultimate outcast from the Kokiri because there was "something different about him." Even though the Kokiri had pointed ears, they still noticed. He was Hylian. In ALttP, Link's Uncle states that Link is a descendant of the Knights of Hyrule, who were all Hylian. I understand that it may seem unlikely that all Links and all Zeldas are Hylian, but the games state facts. And there you have it.

PIE

Again, I'm dropping the "name of the series argument, either stance is an opinion, and I'll leave Sagasaki to his.

However, on the Hylian thing... no. Zelda elements is not a canonical source; it is a fan site and no more informative or knowledgeable than you or I. There is no reason to beleive that the Knights of Hyrule were Hylain (AlttP never states thatr they were) and no game text suggests that Link and Zelda of AlttP have any relation to the Hylians. Again, the game text does say the entire Hylain race has vanished.

The Maunal and Game Text for AlttP (properly translated) might be helpful here...

Sagasaki

And let me remind you that ZeldaLegends.net is not official either. But an actually official quote from Nintendo's official website will be posted soon. --71.110.12.2 19:49, 29 January 2007 (CST)

Arcene

The first translation site didn't really say anything at all about the Hylian thing... The second one told that the bloodline was weakened, but Sahasrala and Zelda are descendants of the Seven Sages (Hylians) and Link is a descendant of the Royal Knights of Hyrule. Copied from your own source: "Among the descendants of the Knights Of Hyrule a hero must appear. ...I see. Link, I believe you." Link then gets the rest of the pendants, obtains the Master Sword, and becomes the Hero of Time that we all know and love. So both Zelda and Link are related to the Hylians, but they are referred to as the Seven Sages or the Knights of Hyrule, which are just the general names for groups of Hylians.

The entire Hylian race may have vanished, but isn't that exactly what the Hero of Time does nearly every time until Link discovers his true capabilities? As stated on [4] "Hylians: Hylians are an elf-like race of people who first established an ordered civilization in Hyrule. Famous Hylians include Princess Zelda and Link. The Hylians' long, sculpted ears enable them to hear special messages. As the chosen people, they are also given unique psychic and magical abilities." And so on and so forth. It doesn't get much more canon than the official Nintendo site.

Sagasaki

Beautiful! And let me also remind you, concerning your "Knights of Hyrule". You say that doesn't mean they are Hylian? Try to put it in perspective like this: If you're born in in America, you are American. If you are born in Japan, you are Japanese. Not to say that they are not of the race of Hyrule, but even if they weren't, they have the right to call themselves Hylian.

Arcene

People of Hyrule do not call themselves Hylians. They are called Hyruleans, as also stated on [5]

PIE

Aye:

  • Born in America from Caucasian Parents = American (citizen) Caucasian (Race)
  • Born in America from Asian Parents = American (citizen) Asian (Race)
  • Born in Hyrule from Goron Parents = Hyrulian (citizen) Goron (Race)
  • Born in Hyrule from Hylian Parents = Hyrulian (citizen) Hylian (Race)

Hylian (or "the Hylia people") is a race found in a relatively small number of Zelda games. Hyrulian is a citzenship title which applies to all sentient being of the land of Hyrule.

And sorry, but no, the official Zelda site is not Canon. Only Zelda games and instruction manuals have that honour. Not even Miyamoto nor Aonuma themeselves speak constsnt truth about the series; and the offical North American site does not involve them at all.

The Zelda Legends links I posted are words taken write out of games/intructrion booklets, not fan/NoA created content. They're canon.

Sagasaki

"Not even Miyamoto nor Aonuma themeselves speak constsnt truth about the series"?! If you honestly believe that, then I believe we are done here.

Arcene

Well put, PIE. Alright, here, if that's a direct translation, then this quote FAQ at [6] is now qualified as canon. The other quote FAQs contain information identical to the second source that you shared, and you called it canon, so here we are. As read after searching for "Hylian" in the document, the Great Deku Tree is speaking to Link: "You must be wondering why only you have grown up! Well, as you might have already guessed, you are not a Kokiri! You are actually a Hylian! I am happy to finally reveal this secret to you! (cut scene) Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world. One day, to escape from the fires of the war, a Hylian mother and her baby boy entered this forbidden forest. The mother was gravely injured... Her only choice was to entrust the child to the Deku Tree, the guardian spirit of the forest. The Deku Tree could sense that this was a child of destiny, whose fate would affect the entire world, so he took him into the forest. After the mother passed away, the baby was raised as a Kokiri. And now, finally, the day of destiny has come! (end cut scene) You are a Hylian, and were always bound to leave this forest."

So now we know for sure, from game text, that OoT Link is Hylian. Second of all, I took from your own source and stated in a previous post that Link is Hylian. Are you denying your own source? In another ALttP quote FAQ, [7], the Maiden in Skull Woods Palace says, "Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero... You are of their blood-line, aren't you? Then you must rescue Zelda without fail." Only someone with the Knight blood-line can be a hero, and the Knights were Hylian. Yes, they protected royalty of Hylian, but they were Hylian as well.

I haven't been able to find a canon source that says the Hylians "vanished"... I've seen things that say their blood line has diminished from your ALttP source, but definitely not vanished. Could you help me out with a quote? Thanks.

Non-Argument based comments here

You can put your constructive criticism or comments here. For argument pieces, put them in the above category.