You know, I actually think that this explains quite a bit. Good read, nice job. --69.68.139.225 22:16, 26 January 2007 (CST)
- Thanks! It's really good to receive input from others, especially such positive comments! I'm very glad that it makes sense for you, it's something I feel really strongly about. Thank you!!--Sagasaki 22:53, 26 January 2007 (CST)
- Sweet, glad you guys got this worked out. Do you mind if we discuss/debate the article content here on the talk page? --PIE
- But of course! Feel free!--Sagasaki 00:27, 27 January 2007 (CST)
- Schweet. Starting with the background stuff;
On the Argument content[]
PIE[]
- For sake of my argument, have you played or familiarised yourself with AoL? AlttP?
- In the Background History section, you suggest that most of the characters in most Zelda games are Hylian. This is not the case. By AlttP, the Hylains are long gone. ("Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land..."), the subsequent games chronologically (LA, LoZ, AoL, and OoX) do not even make mention of Hylians and cannot possibly contain them. TMC is quite specifically about "men" (the term "Hylian" is never used, "man" is instead, and the "Hero of Man" is an important background character), FS and FSA follow chronologically and, similarily, make no mention of Hylians.
- In the section "The Legend of Zelda", you suggest that the series is so named to emphasize Zelda's role. That is incorrect. The series is named for the Backstory of AoL, begun "Link, the time has come when I must tell you the legend of Zelda handed down in Hyrule."
Sagasaki[]
Thanks for the argument! I'll see what I can do to hold my own :P
First of all, I did not state that the Hylians were the most common people, I simply stated that they were the most important. I know for a fact that they are often rare, but important nonetheless. And as to your quote:
(The series is named for the Backstory of AoL, begun 'Link, the time has come when I must tell you the legend of Zelda handed down in Hyrule.')
you state that Legend of Zelda was named for AoL, correct? How can that be true if the "Legend of Zelda", the very first game, was named and created before the Adventure of Link? And the 'legend of Zelda' is a legend concerning Zelda, is it not? If it wasn't, then why would the legend have the name Zelda in it?
Again, thanks for your argument, I'm glad that people are expressing their opinions!
PIE[]
In a strange move we have not seen from Nintendo since the late 80s, the story of LoZ was planned to include a sequel (AoL). The state of the Triforce in LoZ was unexplainable until AoL, the lack of the Triforce of Courage was unexplainable ntil AoL, the inclusion of Impa in the LoZ story was unexplainable until AoL, etc.
The "Legend of Zelda", as a Legend, is about the actual name Zelda, and why it was originally important in Hyrule. It was an essential plot element in the early games, one they chose to name the series after (As other games Nintendo of the time, ie Metroid, were named for plot elements).
As to the Hylains... now I'm confused as to the devlopment of your debate. Why did you mention the Hylians?
Sagasaki[]
For starters, I mentioned the Hylians because you did originally in your second point. And now I'm confused as to your development. You said "The "Legend of Zelda", as a Legend, is about the actual name Zelda, and why it was originally important in Hyrule." Well, where, in fact, did that name, Zelda, come from? It wasn't just a name randomly picked and chosen, it was based on the name of a character. And, if you don't mind, re-read "the Legend of Zelda" section, as I have added two more cited sources. The character of Zelda was named after the name of an actress, which also then named the series, says Miyamoto (the games ultimate creator). Also, you stated points about the Triforce and Impa. Isn't that going just a bit off topic, as I have never mentioned any of these in my article.--Sagasaki 12:29, 28 January 2007 (CST)
PIE[]
I meant to inquire why you added discussion of the Hylains into your article at all. I don't understand why they're imortant to your theroy if you know that not every Zelda/not every Link has been Hylian.
I mentioned Impa and the Triforce to show the plaaning involved in LoZ storylines, showing that a sequel had alwasys been intended and planned for. Which explains how LoZ could have been given the name of an AoL plot device.
Answers.com is not a canonical source. Its not valid in argument. Yes, I know the Miyamato named his princess after F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife; He took a name; asked a character on that name, based a Legend on that character, and then named the series after the Legend. No part of this process suggests the series was named to highlight a special role of the Zelda character.
Sagasaki[]
Ok, first of all, Link and Zelda, every one, are Hylian. We know this. If you want to dispute that, then don't argue at all. Even this Wiki states that every Link is Hylian ("In all games, Link is a Hylian, and, due to that, appears as a young man with pointed ears. He generally has the Triforce mark on the back of his left-hand. [1]".) and every Zelda is Hylian (http://www.zeldawiki.org/index.php?title=Princess_Zelda). I don't know where you got the idea that they were not. And then, your quote you made contradicts even yourself. You state:
"He took a name; asked a character on that name, based a Legend on that character, and then named the series after the Legend. No part of this process suggests the series was named to highlight a special role of the Zelda character."
Well, what you just said was that he based a Legend on Zelda, and named the series after that legend. Putting it together, that's saying he named the series after Zelda's legend. So how is it that the seriese is not highlighting Zelda's character? And who is in each game? Zelda. Who does Link attempt to save nearly every single game? Zelda. And so why are you so against the fact that the series may be named after her? And to tie all that together, what on earth does this have to do with the relationship of Link and Zelda? Keep in mind, it's not completely the character that is choosing the story, it is Miyamoto, the man behind the legend. You really think he has some other girl than Zelda in mind for Link, even if it dosen't show? Anyway, thats all I have tonight. Thanks for contributing! --Sagasaki 22:43, 28 January 2007 (CST)
PIE[]
Please stop using wikis as evidence. They are not sources of Canon. According to AlttP; "Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land...". The Hylains have died out by ALttP; thge Zelda of AlttP is not Hylains. Neither is the Link.
I never said that Zelda was unimportant to the series; I simply argued against your statent (in the article) that Zelda's importance was the reason fro the title. Yu made a false statemnt (unrelated to your main argument, but a false statement none the less) and I though to repare it.
I am not yet arguing against your ideas on the Link and Zelda relationship; I am aonly arguing against the minor errors you made in your devlopment. I have no grand purpose agianst your theory itself.
Sagasaki[]
Anyone care to step in? I've personally never seen a human Link or Zelda, or any other race of them for that matter. They always have the pointy Hylian ears, and even Miyamoto has stated that they are all Hylian... and if you honestly believe that the game is not named after Zelda, then I have no more argument for you. That is simply rediclous, and i'm sure there are others that would agree. So, lets try and keep the debate towards the relationships then. --71.110.12.2 07:43, 29 January 2007 (CST)
PIE[]
Hylians have Pointy ears. That does not, in any way, mean that everyone with point ears is Hylian. Canonical statements are more important then your interpretation of visuals and ALttP (which has a Link and has a Zelda) stats that the Hylians have died out. Regardless of what any wiki says, this is a closed case... And not that a Miyamoto quote would matter in this case... but can you prove he said that?
Now then... Public opinion on the Zelda situation is as split as we are, (polls) so I'll drop the case...
Arcene[]
Yeah, I'm also from Twilight Plains, but pay no mind to that. I'm here to discuss, not play favorites :)
So anyway, it seems as though both of you are arguing that the story was named after Zelda because of her importance or the legend of Zelda as mentioned in AoL, correct? It would seem to make sense that the named person has significance in the story, especially if it was named after their (meaning every Zelda's) legend. As we have seen, AoL cleared up the issues of all the different Zeldas and why they were all there. "Moreover [AoL] gives cause for all of the princesses being named Zelda. A Zelda of many generations before was put to sleep for her transgressions against the King by hiding the triforce, so the prince decreed that all princesses of the realm would carry the name Zelda." That is stated on many sites, but I got that specific quote from here: [h++p://ezinearticles.com/?The-Legend-of-Zelda:-A-Short-History&id=422853] I'm not saying it's the most valid source, but there you are, and if you're really dying to tell me that any and all Zeldas do not carry a legend, go do some research. Anyway. That's not important.
My next point is to bring up the first name that the original Legend of Zelda was known by -- Zelda no Densetsu: The Hyrule Fantasy. Densetsu translates to Legend in Japanese, so it was still known as the Legend of Zelda. That might not seem very relevant, but it will stop some arguments from ever starting. :) Obviously, Zelda played an important role in the first Legend of Zelda. Since we have no confirmed evidence that the creators were indeed thinking of AoL as they were titling the first LoZ, I can't say for sure that they had all of their continuity figured out. At the time, Miyamoto probably thought that he would just name the franchise Zelda no Densetsu and be finished with it, but when he thought of continuing the franchise, he must have considered adding other characters. PIE said that in AoL it was stated that the story would be related as the Legend of Zelda. Well, there's always going to be a Zelda, and she obviously had some importance in the past at that point, so why shouldn't the series emphasize her role? My opinion is that yes, the series is named for Zelda and her importance to the series, whether it is the Legend of the Zeldas that are always around whether Link is helping them or not, or whether it's because Link and Zelda are always meant to be. Link and Zelda do have a special bond in many of the games, not necessarily because it's romantic or anything, but because he is always the Hero of Time and she is always the damsel in distress. Hero saves damsel, end of story. That does not mean that every Link and every Zelda will get together, although that is a nice thought.
Well, I hope that held some semblance of logic... It's already become confusing, but please, feel free to prove me wrong. I would love to see some solid evidence so we can finish this once and for all :) Thanks.
P.S. In response to saying that not all pointy-eared characters are Hylians... I agree, but I believe that Link and Zelda are always Hylian. See here: "The Royal Family and the bloodline of the Hero are always Hylian, suggesting truth in the claims of Hylian's possessing powers. While blood may be passed from generation to generation, languages are lost, and Hylian from Pre-Flood Hyrule is one such language that suffers at the hands of time." Taken from: [2]
In OoT, Link was the ultimate outcast from the Kokiri because there was "something different about him." Even though the Kokiri had pointed ears, they still noticed. He was Hylian. In ALttP, Link's Uncle states that Link is a descendant of the Knights of Hyrule, who were all Hylian. I understand that it may seem unlikely that all Links and all Zeldas are Hylian, but the games state facts. And there you have it.
PIE[]
Again, I'm dropping the "name of the series argument, either stance is an opinion, and I'll leave Sagasaki to his.
However, on the Hylian thing... no. Zelda elements is not a canonical source; it is a fan site and no more informative or knowledgeable than you or I. There is no reason to beleive that the Knights of Hyrule were Hylain (AlttP never states thatr they were) and no game text suggests that Link and Zelda of AlttP have any relation to the Hylians. Again, the game text does say the entire Hylain race has vanished.
The Maunal and Game Text for AlttP (properly translated) might be helpful here...
Sagasaki[]
And let me remind you that ZeldaLegends.net is not official either. But an actually official quote from Nintendo's official website will be posted soon. --71.110.12.2 19:49, 29 January 2007 (CST)
Arcene[]
The first translation site didn't really say anything at all about the Hylian thing... The second one told that the bloodline was weakened, but Sahasrala and Zelda are descendants of the Seven Sages (Hylians) and Link is a descendant of the Royal Knights of Hyrule. Copied from your own source: "Among the descendants of the Knights Of Hyrule a hero must appear. ...I see. Link, I believe you." Link then gets the rest of the pendants, obtains the Master Sword, and becomes the Hero of Time that we all know and love. So both Zelda and Link are related to the Hylians, but they are referred to as the Seven Sages or the Knights of Hyrule, which are just the general names for groups of Hylians.
The entire Hylian race may have vanished, but isn't that exactly what the Hero of Time does nearly every time until Link discovers his true capabilities? As stated on [3] "Hylians: Hylians are an elf-like race of people who first established an ordered civilization in Hyrule. Famous Hylians include Princess Zelda and Link. The Hylians' long, sculpted ears enable them to hear special messages. As the chosen people, they are also given unique psychic and magical abilities." And so on and so forth. It doesn't get much more canon than the official Nintendo site.
Sagasaki[]
Beautiful! And let me also remind you, concerning your "Knights of Hyrule". You say that doesn't mean they are Hylian? Try to put it in perspective like this: If you're born in in America, you are American. If you are born in Japan, you are Japanese. Not to say that they are not of the race of Hyrule, but even if they weren't, they have the right to call themselves Hylian.
Arcene[]
People of Hyrule do not call themselves Hylians. They are called Hyruleans, as also stated on [4]
PIE[]
Aye:
- Born in America from Caucasian Parents = American (citizen) Caucasian (Race)
- Born in America from Asian Parents = American (citizen) Asian (Race)
- Born in Hyrule from Goron Parents = Hyrulean (citizen) Goron (Race)
- Born in Hyrule from Hylian Parents = Hyrulean (citizen) Hylian (Race)
Hylian (or "the Hylia people") is a race found in a relatively small number of Zelda games. Hyrulean is a citzenship title which applies to all sentient being of the land of Hyrule.
And sorry, but no, the official Zelda site is not Canon. Only Zelda games and instruction manuals have that honour. Not even Miyamoto nor Aonuma themeselves speak constsnt truth about the series; and the offical North American site does not involve them at all.
The Zelda Legends links I posted are words taken write out of games/intructrion booklets, not fan/NoA created content. They're canon.
Sagasaki[]
"Not even Miyamoto nor Aonuma themeselves speak constsnt truth about the series"?! If you honestly believe that, then I believe we are done here.
Arcene[]
Well put, PIE, the racial labeling system seems to be cleared up. Alright, here, if that's a direct translation, then this quote FAQ at [5] is now qualified as canon. The other quote FAQs contain information identical to the second source that you shared, and you called it canon, so here we are. As read after searching for "Hylian" in the document, the Great Deku Tree is speaking to Link: "You must be wondering why only you have grown up! Well, as you might have already guessed, you are not a Kokiri! You are actually a Hylian! I am happy to finally reveal this secret to you! (cut scene) Some time ago, before the King of Hyrule unified this country, there was a fierce war in our world. One day, to escape from the fires of the war, a Hylian mother and her baby boy entered this forbidden forest. The mother was gravely injured... Her only choice was to entrust the child to the Deku Tree, the guardian spirit of the forest. The Deku Tree could sense that this was a child of destiny, whose fate would affect the entire world, so he took him into the forest. After the mother passed away, the baby was raised as a Kokiri. And now, finally, the day of destiny has come! (end cut scene) You are a Hylian, and were always bound to leave this forest."
So now we know for sure, from game text, that OoT Link is Hylian. Second of all, I took from your own source and stated in a previous post that Link is Hylian. Are you denying your own source? In another ALttP quote FAQ, [6], the Maiden in Skull Woods Palace says, "Only a person of the Knights Of Hyrule, who protected the royalty of Hylia, can become the Hero... You are of their blood-line, aren't you? Then you must rescue Zelda without fail." Only someone with the Knight blood-line can be a hero, and the Knights were Hylian. Yes, they protected royalty of Hylian, but they were Hylian as well.
I haven't been able to find a canon source that says the Hylians "vanished"... I've seen things that say their blood line has diminished from your ALttP source, but definitely not vanished. Could you help me out with a quote? Thanks.
PIE[]
Sagasaki; Miyamoto said, in 2004, that TP would be a seuqel to the Wind Waker. Aonuma, at E3 2006, said that in occurs between tWW and OOT. So... no, they do not always sepak the truth?
Not relative enough an example? Two years after the release of LA, Miyamoto said that it could really "go anywhere" in the timeline. That can be easily diproved; LA is the sequel to ALttP.
Arcene; OOT(MM) Link is definitely Hylian, as is TP Link (Shad refers to himself and Link as "We Hylains"). tWW Link? probably too. I'm certainly not denying any of that. Its the later Links I care about...
Now then, your right about Link's decent, but I don't knwo if that prooves him to be Hylian. AlttP specifically seprates "The Hylians" from "Their Decendents", and, again, AlttP makes it clear that the Hylains no longer exists (Check the properly translated AlttP texts I posted above and search for (ctrl+F) "Hylian" to find all the implicating quotes.
Arcene[]
I know that as the Hylian race as a whole, they're pretty much gone, but that does not mean that their descendents do not carry the bloodline that makes them Hylian. I also admit that since the bloodline is diluted, they cannot be considered full Hylians because of their lack of magical prowess and other such things, but they are at least part Hylian. In your game quotes, it says: "I am Sahasrahla, the village elder and a descendent of the seven wise men." So we have another descendent. He later states: "According to the tales handed down by the Hylia, only the Hero who has destroyed three great evils and won the three Pendants can wield the sword..." and the story continues, but obviously there had to be some form of the Hylia for the tales to be handed down. That's just a given. Sure, they could have been writings, but it also states in the quotes that only those with the Book of Mudora can read the writings of the Hylians, and the Hero of Time will obtain the Book of Mudora. So basically, we're both right. Link and Zelda, from the original Legend of Zelda and the Adventure of Link, at least, are Hylian, yet not Hylian because of their diluted bloodline. I don't know if TP, OoT, and the other confirmed Hylian Links are considered full Hylians either, so I suppose that's still up for debate. However, I don't consider the debate about the later Links (or should they be earlier, since we don't have a canon timeline?) relevant to this topic, as Sagasaki covered general LoZ history. Yes, all Links and Zeldas are Hylian. Full-blooded Hylians, maybe not, but still Hylian to one degree or another. Thanks, PIE, it's been fun :)
PIE[]
Sure, I'll give ya that. Deep down, we're all mesopotamian, aren't we? Now we, personally, will never beable to answer the question "when can we no longer call a person of Hylain ancesotroy Hylian", AlttP does give us the answer in one specific case. If the Hylains are not in the world of ALttP, then its people, regardless of their decent, are not Hylain; a distinction the mean very very little I suppose... This whole argument really got blown way out of proportion. Meh. Twas fun...
Arcene[]
Mesopotamians... I'll leave that one alone. I can't find where it says that Hylians are not in the world of ALttP. It only says that they lived long ago, not that they were wiped out or even disappeared. It actually promotes the feeling that the Hylian bloodline is still around, in some cases, especially because the Sages and Knights were confirmed Hylians. The Knights defended the Hylian Royal Family, and Link, as previously quoted, is a descendant of the Knights. "So descendant, in this context, seems to mean a literal blood relation within a family. Which makes it difficult to explain how the sages all became Hylian. The whole issue is still open to interpretation." This quote from the translation covers the issue quite nicely. Also in that same translated text: "The prohecy was originally made by the seven sages, and passed down by the Hylians." The article talks about Hylians as a nation in some cases. It could be that the nation died out, but there are still those who are Hylian because of their bloodline. It's like an Irish American. Their descendants are from Ireland, but we still call them Americans because they are living in a diverse social group. Zelda and Link are still from Hyrule, thus making them Hyruleans, but their bloodline points to Hylian, thus making them Hylians. It is extremely difficult to disregard descent, as that is the only way someone can be labeled as a certain race. It's just not practical. The Hylians were known as "a prosperous people," but that does not mean that their race is dead. It just means that their civilization is not around as it used to be, like so many civilizations today.
Winst[]
I just found this site, but I wanted to add to Arcene's comment... to say "Long before now, a people called the Hylians prospered in this land..." does not at all, in any way say they are wiped out, dead, extinct, or anything like that. What is does say is that the Hylians no longer prosper in the land. Not prospering does not at all equal extinction, and to assume it does is to make a huge leap in interpretation.
BPenguin17[]
First off, thanks for writing this article. It's certainly sparked an interesting conversation! My observations are might be a bit of a shift from the general discussion, but here they are: I'd have to disagree with you on the inevitability of the LinkXZelda romance in every game. Some games certainly hint toward a warm relationship, but not all, and possibly not even the majority. Consider OoT and MM: Link leaves Zelda, and never returns, as he is not there to defend Hyrule from a resurrected Ganon. In every game, the relationship is merely hinted, not expressly stated. Even in ST, where Zelda/Tetra is shown to have had descendants, nowhere does it say that tWW Link was her husband. The developers have deliberately kept LinkXZelda vague and unprovable.
The reason for this, I believe, is so that the player can step into Link's boots a little better. If the game decides who Link will marry, the player has lost the illusion of free will and dictating Link's actions. For example, for TP, players have developed the ideas of LinkXZelda relationships, LinkXIlia relationships, and LinkXMidna relationships. People are content in their fantasies wherein all of Zelda canon follows from personal preferences. If the game's creators were to expressly state that Link ends up with Zelda, the multitude of Midna "shippers" would grumble, "Well, I wouldn't have done that..." Contradicting a "shipper" and making a noticeable distinction between the player's personality and Link's personality would be a fatal flaw for a series that depends so much on the player and the character being one. Until Nintendo chooses to make a Zelda game with multiple ending possibilities, or decides that players' romantic preferences are less important than solid canon, LinkXZelda will never be more than one of many choices.
(A final note: shameless advertising! If you want to stop by my page, I have a draft of an article that challenges your assertion that this series is named after Zelda. I'd love any comments or suggestions.) Bpenguin17 16:18, 18 December 2010 (EST)
Non-Argument based comments here[]
You can put your constructive criticism or comments here. For argument pieces, put them in the above category.
"This also cancels out any Link X Malon, Saria or Ruto relationships, because we notice that neither Link or Zelda are ever human, Zorian, or Kokiri" I'm sorry, but Malon is clearly Hylain, so a LinkxMalon is possible Calibure 12:41, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
hylians[]
hylians are a race not a species
Who says they need to be married?[]
WINK*--Remo 08:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Your logic on ZeldaxLink Stinks[]
Zybera: It is only fair to note that your info on LinkxZelda is USLESS without good in game hints. AND what about LINK!? He has to face the big ugly dude to save her. He has to do SOOOOOO much work to save her. Also, THE GAME IS ABOUT LINK NOT ZELDA! The Legend of Link just dosent sound catchy. Think about THAT. Also what about Twilight Pricess? He is desendend form the OOT Link. Is he royal? No. Is he a rancher like Malon, a job that stays with family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zybera (talk) 02:44, 21 October 2009 Zybera
- In order for the player to connect to Link, we have the ability to vhange his name, Just Like pokemon, the first couple of games star Red, but thats his generic name, We change it. Pokemon of Red, legend of red, Pokemon Master Red. THE GAME IS ABOUT RED'S PATH TO BECOME A MASTER NOT THE POKEMON DIRECTLY. Its a Nintendo tradition, Zelda my not always be a main character (or a character at all) but she was in the first game, the first legend (real-world pov) involed her, Ganon, and Link. Link's name is changable (The Legend of [insert name here]), Ganon is the villain (nintendo dont make it easy for a villain to get some reconigtion that doesnt invole bein beat by a 12-17 year-old) So that leaves Zelda, and the title has became a center to all classic gamers and will continue to be so for years to come. feel free to argue, I got the time. And on a side note "It is only fair to note that your info on LinkxZelda is USLESS without good in game hints", screw hints, Mario and Peach are never seen screwin eachother, but we asume their ina relationship. Clarkmaster 03:41, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
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