Was he really 'possessed' by Ganon? The Japanese game manual implies that they're one and the same, and in both English translations Ganon explicitly refers to him as his "alter ego." I always held that Agahnim was just Ganondorf in the guise of a priest/wizard. I don't believe it's ever stated directly either way, so shouldn't the article be a bit more ambiguous about this? Dazuro (talk) 04:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem is that it was also implied that Agahnim needed to break the seal on the Dark World. If he was simply Ganon in disguise, why would he need to break the seal to the Dark World if he already managed to escape from the Dark World anyways? It almost seems redundant. Possession is really the only thing that actually makes sense. At least then, he would be attempting to break the seal of the Dark World so Ganon and his armies would emerge from the portal. Plus, when Agahnim was defeated the second time, after spinning around and collapsing, he lies rather corpselike while Ganon's spirit emerges from his body and transforms into a bat before plowing through the top of the Pyramid of Power. If Ganon and Agahnim were one and the same, they would have had Agahnim's clothes fall off to reveal Ganon's pig visage before he transforms into a Bat. The way they did it would imply spiritual possession rather than simply being the same entity. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:00, November 20, 2010 (UTC)


Full Body Link
Mr kmil – Guess who got a new IPod? Curse you Apple!!
TALK – Come to Church, we have cookies
Dear lord, if you see an eye, he's related to the Shiekah. Any comments?
AuronKaizer - "Seems like everyone's sailing way out on the sea, and I'm stuck here on the shore. Sun's always shining, but it's never for me. Why should I try anymore?"
If we were all blind, we wouldn't be in this mess!
Pedestal of Time (Ocarina of Time)
Jedimasterlink – For creativity you look to the new [games]. For genius, the old. --Metroidhunter32
It's just an eye; there is no oversized teardrop or a set of conspicuous triangular eyelashes. There's nothing to indicate that it has anything to do with the Shiekah.

Boss Character

Aquamentus (Oracle of Seasons)
Oni Dark Link – "We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations."

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels."- Albert Einstein"
TALK – {{{time}}}~ evaluations reviews walkthrough

Right now this is the only major character boss that has both his boss info and character info on the same page. The Oracle of Seasons mini boss is the one that screws this up stopping us from doing what we usually do. Still something needs to be sorted out so he gets two pages like everyone else. We could just call the character page Agahnim and then at the top have a note directing to the oracle of seasons mini boss. Anyone else have any ideas?
General Onox
EveryDayJoe45 – "Democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"--Winston Churchill
I've been aware of this problem for a long while and have just ignored it due to the complexity behind the issue. I still don't really know what should be done. If we want to make a seperate page for the boss battle though, we may have to do like Ganondorf and make "Agahnim" a hub page for the character and this a page for the boss. By doing that, however, we would be saying this Agahnim and the one from OoS are the same, and I don't know how confirmed that is (even though the name is very obscure and I doubt it was done on accident to be fair).
AuronKaizer - "Well you don't have a tongue, but that doesn't seem to shut you up, now does it?!?"
Honestly, this works. Bending the rules is okay sometimes, if no viable options are found. And I've yet to see any.
Aquamentus (Oracle of Seasons)
Oni Dark Link – ""Yes, that is true, Prince. In our days," continued Véra - mentioning 'our days' as people of limited intelligence are fond of doing, imagining that they have discovered and appraised the peculiarities of 'our days' and that human characteristics change with the times - War and Peace"
TALK – {{{time}}}~ evaluations reviews walkthrough
If we just have Agahnim as the hub and only cover his A Link to the Past character yet still mention the Oracle of Ages boss somewhere in the article maybe in a theory section saying its unknown if they are the same character or connected
AuronKaizer - "Gordon! I need you to wake up, and take a really, really good look at him... You know what I wouldn't do? I wouldn't tell anybody about this, because if they find out about Hank, they're going to find out about the others."
My point still stands.
Aquamentus (Oracle of Seasons)
Oni Dark Link – "What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so. - Hamlet"
TALK – {{{time}}}~ evaluations reviews walkthrough
And that's your opinion

Tribe of Evil

Aquamentus (Oracle of Seasons)
Oni Dark Link – "I was a fool, I wanted to be a soldier. War is meaningless... Nothing comes out of war. Snake, please! Save yourself. Go on living and don't give up on people! Don't forget me... Don't forget what I said. Now get out of here! - Meryl Silverburgh"
TALK – {{{time}}}~ evaluations reviews walkthrough
Before the first fight with him Agahnim refers to a Tribe of Evil that he is seemingly part of.
"After all the, the legendary Hero cannot defeat us, the tribe of evil, when we are armed with the Power of Gold"
— direct quote

Anyone think this needs a page? I ask rather then out righting making it because I'm not entirely sure a page for it would work there's not much more that can be said about it other then Agahnim and possibly Ganon are part of it. I do think is deserves a mention though maybe somewhere on this page. Any opinions on this?

AuronKaizer - "Come on and give me a drink! Oh, little lady, be nice. Sure do, I'll drink it straight, don't need no glass or no ice. Don't need no twist of lime... and now it's suppertime!"
Seems possible that it's a term being used to refer to all of Ganon's monster servants. I don't know what, if anything, of substance could be said about it, though. I'm not really seeing a viable group article here.

Possessed VS Alter Ego Debate

I'm here to explain why I think we can state that Aghanim is an Alter Ego of Ganon and not a separate normal individual who he eventually possessed. The primary evidence is that the word used in both english translations of the game is "Alter Ego", a term which indicates a second self/alternate personality/etc., and is incompatible with the idea that Agahnim was a separate person who became possessed. That's the English, now here is a direct translator's comments on the original Japanese text:

"[Japanese Word] is like a copy, or your other self, or when you split yourself into two people. It implies that Ganon and Agahnim were the same thing in a way. For example, [Japanese Word] is used in OoT to describe one of the Poe bosses in the Forest Temple: "Meg - one of the Poe sisters. If she splits into multiple images, you need to figure out which one is the real one." So Agahnim is kind of like a copy or shadow of Ganon."

I personally think that this helps clarify, but even ignoring the original writer's words, this same concept is still conveyed by the US term "Alter Ego".

The argument has been raised that after the second defeat of Agahnim, a transparent Ganon sprite rises from his corpse. This has been interpreted as indicating possession, though I don't understand the reason that it should be. Ganon's entire purpose for Agahnim (whether or not he was an alter ego or possessed being) was for Ganon to have a way to act in the Light World, since his true self was sealed away from it and could not enter. I see no reason that an alter ego extension of Ganon would not be made with a physical body, or why this second self's corpse would cease to exists when the true Ganon severs his connection it, and leaves to manifest his still intact true self in other forms. Agahnim has to have a body of his own for use in the Light World, and I don't see why Ganon, who is of course connected to it, could not in some way inhabit it and rise from it while it is in the Dark World.

I feel like the the "rising from a body means independent person who was later possessed" idea is subjective and vague, while the "Alter Ego" term is very clear and directly stated by Ganon. I know of no other evidence to support the possession idea (remember that manga is noncanonical).--FierceDeku 04:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that Alter-Ego implies that its some sort of disguise, like how Kent Clark's alter ego is Superman, Palpatine's alter ego is Darth Sidious, or how Vanessa's alter ego is Ursula (heck, they even have Vanessa actually transforming into Ursula as soon as the sun set on the third day). They would have probably pulled something similar just to make it 100% apparent that Agahnim and Ganon were one and the same. Actually, Ganondorf is probably a lot closer to an alter ego to Ganon than Agahnim was, since unlike Agahnim and Ganon, they actually transformed into one another. Now, a very good way of actually showing they were alter egos is that Agahnim, shortly after being defeated, has poof smoke appear and in his place Ganon emerges, and THEN Ganon transforms into a bat. If you want drama, just have lightning hit the spot the poof smoke appears and it will work. If they could pull it off with Blind, they certainly can do so with Agahnim just to be as in-your-face that its an alter ego/disguise as one can get. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 16:46, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be harsh here, but from my perspective it seems like you're saying that because the visual effect that happens after Agahnim's defeat isn't as well executed as you would have liked, we should throw out the one part of the game that actually clearly states in plain words what Agahnim's relationship to Ganon is. The possessed person idea is compatible with the visual effect of course, but not with the direct statement. The second self idea is compatible with both the visual effect and the direct statement. I've already explained why the seal placed on Ganon himself requires that the second self he creates in the Light World be physically separate from him and not his actual self in disguise. It doesn't really matter what other common examples of alter egos may exist, the term does not apply to an entirely separate person who was later taken control of. The Japanese translation makes it clear that the intent was that Ganon had in some way projected a second, but separate, self; the US translation team simply didn't have a convenient term in their language that implied that the two selves did not have to be always housed in the same body, so they just used "alter ego" to denote that a second self was in play, and not a possession. I guess we need more people's opinions here because we seem to have conflicting ideas on what is relevant to this sort of thing.--FierceDeku 21:52, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

In my personal opinion I do not think Agahnim was a normal person possessed. However when referring to the relationship I think the term alter ego should be used but not overly. Things should be neutral so instead of "Ganon abandoned his host Agahnim" or "Ganon rose up from his alter ego's remains" it should simply be "Ganon rose up from Agahnims remains". I think Agahnim is his alter ego but I also think it isn't a major issue in the story and references to Ganon projecting himself into the light word or such should be avoided. Oni Dark Link 22:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Neither option seems fittingly conclusive to me. Phrasing the information in a neutral way that doesn't favor either belief seems to be the best course of action as both sides are taking increasingly frayed leaps of logic to justify their stance. --AuronKaizer! 23:07, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

While I can't say I understand the evidence for the possession idea, the conversation has gone stagnant. I've "neutralized" all the pages I know of that go into any detail about Ganon/Agahnim. These pages state the factual in-game events directly; that Ganon describes Agahnim as his alter ego (not that he is, but that Ganon describes him using those words), and that Ganon is see rising from Agahnim's body and then transforms into a bat and flees. The articles do not make any attempt to explain what these two events may or may not imply. The reader is left to draw what they will from the raw events of the game.--FierceDeku 01:56, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
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