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| − | {{Archives|~Start}} |
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| + | |summary= Artwork of the [[Links]] standing on a [[Triforce]] Gateway |
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| − | *[[Talk:Zelda Timeline/Archive-01|Archive 1]] |
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| + | |source= Famitsu |
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| − | *[[Talk:Zelda Timeline/Archive-02|Archive 2]] |
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| + | |type= artwork |
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| − | *[[Talk:Zelda Timeline/Archive-03|Archive 3]] |
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| + | |game= TFH |
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| − | {{Archives|~Stop}} |
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| + | |licensing= Copyright |
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| + | }} |
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| − | == Include Epilogue == |
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| − | In HH, Each Timeline branch has an Epilogue which hints at the future of this timeline, i think they should be included |
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| − | Adult Timeline (WW-PH-ST): |
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| − | When old kingdom was destroyed, Hyrule walked a new path in the world carried by the wind. With only a few remnants of the Lineage of the Goddess left, what will happen to the new generation? From now on, a new history will be spun. |
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| − | Child Timeline (MC-TP-FSA): |
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| − | The Sorcerer Vaati was swept up in the endless reincarnation cycle of Ganondorf the thief. The question of whether or not the Light World can escape the threat of darkness remains. There may again come a time when the Four Sword is necessary. |
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| − | Downfall Timeline (aLttP-OoX-LA-LoZ-AoL): |
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| − | The power of the gods had been restored to Hyrule Kingdom through the courage of a young boy. Did generations pass, full of peace and the light of prosperity? Or did the curtains open to an age of darkness where people sought and contested each other for power? The future of this timeline has yet to unravel. [[User:Hyrule hero|Hyrule hero]] 03:54, 8 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | == The Split of the Timelines / Fourth Timeline Theories == |
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| − | For a long, I had been thinking about the Downfall Timeline split. The Downfall Timeline is like the Child Timeline, at the same time, it was also the adult era of the Hero of Time. By looking at the ''Zelda'' timeline from Hyrule Historia, I had noticed the defeat of the Hero of Time was never the cause of the split of the timeline at all. It occurred once [[Link]] pull the [[Master Sword]] from its [[Pedestal of Time]]. The adventure of the Hero of Time in the alternate Adult Timeline was really different, as the Sacred Realm nor Hyrule did not turned into evil worlds like the successful Adult Timeline already did. Probably because Link did not slept and was awake. Surely Ganon wouldn't do anything because the hero was there. |
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| − | Directly after Link turned eighteen, Ganon kidnapped Zelda and Link went after him. At the final battle, Link failed to defeat Ganon and he was able to extract the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom from Link and Zelda. So, the princess and her people sealed the Evil Incarnation of Darkness along with the Triforce within the Sacred Realm. Zelda and those people were the Seven Sages (they aren't [[Ruto]], [[Darunia]], [[Saria]], [[Impa]], [[Nabooru]], nor [[Rauru]]). There would be a theory, the Hero of Time (it wasn't confirmed that he was killed) or the implied Sage of Time used the [[Ocarina of Time (Item)|Ocarina of Time]] to perform the [[Song of Time]] so the [[Goddess of Time]] would create another timeline in which the hero would save [[Hyrule]] from its terrible future and the young boy would learn about his destinies exactly like it happened in ''Ocarina of Time'', which would lead the Hero of Time to defeat Ganon in his adult era at the ending of ''Ocarina of Time'', and being able to find a true future for his childhood with the help of the Goddess of Time in his child era in ''Majora's Mask''. |
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| − | Surely the Goddess of Time was responsible for the splits and the allowance of Link looking for a great future for the Adult Timeline in {{OoT}} and especially for the Child Timeline in {{MM}} too, since the [[Lanayru Province]]'s [[Temple of Time]], the Song of Time and time itself are somehow connected to the Goddess of Time. |
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| − | The [[Terminan Apocalypse]] is depicted to be the unsuccessful ending of ''Majora's Mask'' in an alternate Child Timeline, just like the [[Imprisoning War]] is an event from an alternate Adult Timeline. It would be possible to have a fourth timeline after ''Majora's Mask'' in which the Hero of Time failed to save [[Termina]] from the [[Skull Kid]] and the [[Moon]], which would surely have effect on Hyrule as well. |
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| − | What do you think of those theories?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 15:50, 11 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | :Interesting. You're posing a completely unique theory, and it is easily justifiable with events from the series. |
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| − | :I was especially intrigued when you mentioned the Sages. In A Link to the Past, you are given a backstory that appears quite similar to that which you have described. The Zelda of ALttP is a descendant of one of the Sages, as are the other maidens who later become contained within the crystals in the Dark World. Until reading this, I had never thought that the Sages in Ocarina of Time could not possibly be the same as those mentioned in the backstory, because those sages are human, as are their descendants. |
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| − | :If anything, all I want is for Nintendo to give further information so we can solve these mysteries and stop speculating. Despite the views expressed in that last sentence, I find your ideas remarkable. [[User:Kyro-Dizzy|Kyro-Dizzy]] |
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| − | ::Thanks. For a second, I thought I said nonsensical stuff. Because as said after Link failed to defeat Ganondorf, Zelda and the people of Hyrule sealed the king of thieves within the corrupted Sacred Realm, and those guys, who possess magical abilities (like most Hylians originally have), would become officially the Seven Sages/Seven Wise Men. Hey, that would also reveal why Volvagia is still alive in ''The Adventure of Link'' since the Hero of Time wouldn't fight Volvagia in the Downfall Timeline.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 23:11, 11 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | :::Upon further reflection, it's possible that there is not just three, as you pointed out. However, I have considered the possibility that there is even more than four. Most of Link's trips through time involved a change in the world, however small. It's possible that even grabbing a Rupee could add another timeline, though that's rather drastic. Any number of Link's actions could split the timeline even further. Ignoring Ocarina of Time, there are other games that this idea can be applied to, such as Skyward Sword, to name but one, with the many paradoxes created by the use of the Gate of Time. [[User:Kyro-Dizzy|Kyro-Dizzy]] 00:13, 13 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | ::I just hope that that "further information" is given through games more than anything else. {{:User:NorskTW/sig}} 10:09, 12 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | :::I don't see why not. The canon is established in the games. The manga and even the animated series typically just find a way to fill plot holes presented in the games. Some things are added in here and there, such as the different copies of Link having split personalities and Vaati going back on his wrongdoings and making amends for them. The games are the first source of accurate information. The only problem is when the stories overlap, but that's mainly because of the passing of time weathering the records of the past. [[User:Kyro-Dizzy|Kyro-Dizzy]] |
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| − | {{OT}} |
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| − | :This discussion isn't really relevant to the article. Please try to understand this is not the place for general timeline theorizing. Any further discussion should concern the addition or the improvement of article content. Thank you! {{:User:Hylian King/sig}} 07:59, 13 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | Ummm... Hylian King, its not meant to be relevant. Thats why its being included in a TALK PAGE, which is pretty much a wiki user version of a forum. [[User:ClashOfAges|ClashOfAges]] ([[User talk:ClashOfAges|talk]]) 19:28, 8 January 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :Talk pages are not a forum, they are meant for discussion about the particular article, not personal theories, I'm afraid. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 21:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | == Canonicity of Hyrule Historia == |
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| − | I've noticed that this site and others are treating Hyrule Historia as 100% factual. I know it's an official Nintendo document, but how canonical is the information really? For one thing, there's a major error in the placement of the Oracle games that doesn't match in-game information. For another, why is one of the timeline splits caused by something that doesn't officially happen in the story? (Or to put it another way, why isn't a timeline split caused by Link's defeat in EVERY game?) I believe the information is definitely worth noting, but it should be treated as no more legitimate than any other timeline theory, i.e., adding a Theory tag perhaps. [[User:Wicky1489|Wicky1489]] 23:47, 22 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | :If it's not canonical, then what do you expect? According to you, what should the timeline be like?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] 03:53, 23 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | ::Yes, it's effectively Nintendo's own statement on the timeline. How is it not canon? What would it take for it to be canon? Take into account that Hyrule Historia comes with a disclaimer; Aonuma himself states that there ARE inconsistencies, but that these are inevitable and unavoidable as they reinvent the series with each new entry. |
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| − | ::The third timeline is, arguably, a bit of a cop-out, sure. But it's what they've decided to do and is presumably what they are sticking with for the foreseeable future. They effectively already contradicted themselves by releasing The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, giving A Link to the Past nowhere to go (basically, it's their own fault for confusing the timeline in the first place). Rather than retcon it to a different place in the timeline, they simply added a third ending to Ocarina, so it could remain as it's intended sequel. |
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| − | ::The idea that it's no more legitimate than any other timeline theory is laughable. Of course it's more legitimate! How could it not be? Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it the best timeline imaginable, but it is canon. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 09:44, 23 August 2012 (EDT) |
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| − | ::: Well then, why doesnt FSA follow OoT so IT could remain as ALttP's intended prequel? [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 11:23, 13 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | The Timeline is really understandable since it's the official one! I've got no problems with it since it makes so much sense! :) what only bugs me is that Hyrule Historia ''forgot'' to add that at the ''very end'' Link (Twilight Princess) parted away with Epona (not staying in Ordon Village. Check here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgp8K9GiZ74 --[[User:Isamisa|Isamisa]] 17:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Let me go ahead and point something out I've pointed out elsewhere: One, at first seemingly insignificant bit of backstory, singlehandedly blows a hole in any credibility there is to the claim that OoT and the IW are the same. And this is straight from the mouth of one of the seven maidens: "Link, thanks to you, I was able to escape from the clutches of evil. Thank you!...The Triforce will grant the wishes of whoever touches it, as long as that person lives... That is why it was hidden in the Golden Land. Only a select few were told of its location, but at some point that knowledge was lost... The one who rediscovered the Golden Land was an evil thief named Ganondorf. '''Luckily, he couldn't figure out how to return to the Light World...'''" Let that last bit sink in. Let's go in and actually examine the ramifications of what that last bit means: it means Ganon did not come back to Hyrule after making his wish, as opposed to OoT where he rules it, and The fact that he was able to make a wish on the Triforce from witin the Sacred Realm and was unable to come out means he obtained the Triforce with his first touch, or at least not as described in HH (Where he obtained it in Hyrule immediately following Link's alleged defeat) the former of which requiring a balanced heart, invalidating the two Ganons even being the same due to the statement that the original was unbalanced. Now, I might be speaking a bit out of line here, but throw the entire DT after FSA and move tMC and FS between TP and FSA. Ignoring "Oh well it's canon" ask yourself: are there more or LESS inconsistencies?[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 10:59, 13 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :More. TMC and FS plainly show a world where the Master Sword and Triforce are not yet central to Hyrulean culture, and FSA had stopped being intended as the ALttP prequel before it was even released -- although I gotta agree that it fits better as the IW.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 13:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :TMC doesn't really have the time to randomly talk about the MS. It would be central to the lore in any game considering how it helped found Hyrule, was used by Hylia, etc., so while they don't mention it, the MS is probobly in a forest somewhere. As for the Triforce, there are several references to it in TMC, mostly in The Royal Crypt, Hyrule Castle, and the Bell in Hyrule Town, as well as on Link's shields and strangely the Four Sword. It may, in fact, be a part of Hylian lore, for mostly the same reasoning as the Master Sword, yet also remain unmentioned to Link. Using that same logic, you could also say the Triforce had not yet become a part of Hyrule's Lore in TP-Its only really known by Ganon, the Sages, the Royal Family, and Link. Please, correct me if i'm wrong. The key thing abut FSA's development, however, is that Miyamoto said "Remove the IW". He never said "Stop making it a prequel", so it still, technically, an ALttP prequel. I never said FSA was the IW, but I do think it is a prelude to it. And not only that, the ALttP NOJ manual says Ganon killed his "Gang of thieves", found the Sacred Realm "Quite By accident", and never left the Sacred Realm, as clearly opposed to OoT. Lack of mention is less of an inconsistency, while in HH these are outright contradictions. The funny thing is, at least the NOJ version of the ALttP Manual doesn't contridict the rest of the series, and in some places actually supports it. [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 11:05, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::In basically every other game, the Master Sword and Triforce are well documented in legend -- not publicized among the populace for obvious reasons, but info is there if you need it. There is ''no'' knowledge of them in TMC -- Zelda is ''surprised'' to learn she has the Light Force. |
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| − | ::As for FSA, it may still fit, but they made the conscious decision to not present it as the IW, then officially stated it wasn't. |
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| − | ::I didn't say anything about OoT being the IW, because the official line is that it precedes it -- Ganon reincarnated or escaped or something, and then the ALttP prologue happened.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 13:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Wait wait wait-''LIGHT FORCE?'' Nintendo has stated that the Triforce and the Light Force are unrelated, the intro says it came from the Minish-which directly contradicts the notion anyway, given the Triforce's origin- and HH doesn't say this either, or at the ver least this wiki neglects to mention it. My theory, which doesn't prove that TMC takes place before OoT or disprove it comes after TP, is that The Picori Blade and The Light Force are Picori variations on the Master Sword and the Triforce. And I never said that FSA was still the IW, but still an ALttP prequel- as in these events happen long before the IW even began- and while I usually don't use maps as basis for timelines, the Map of FSA resembles, quite intentionally I believe, the map of ALttP- with Kakariko to the northwest, a swamp in the south, a desert to the southwest, Death Mountain to the North, etc. That's a pretty specific similarity. Also, ALttP says Ganon obtained the Triforce in the Sacred Realm, and was unable to escape it, implying he obtained it at first touch. And finally, the Triforce is mentioned in the manual to be "resting" in the sacred realm when Ganon acquired it, implying a period of inactivity.[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 21:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::The Light Force is separate from the Triforce, yes, but the concepts are related to each other. The Light Force is connected to the special sage power of Zelda, as inherited from Hylia -- if TMC is set after OoT, Zelda really shouldn't be unfamiliar that she has inherited magic power. The Triforce is basically the Force Gems of the Goddesses, while the Light Force is the unmanifested Force Gem of Hylia. For the IW, you're talking about OoT contradicting the IW -- the HH clarifies that the IW happens ''after'' Ganon is defeated by the Sages in OoT, presumably by a reincarnation of Ganon.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 22:10, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::BZZZT. The Light Force is also unrelated to Zelda's "Sage Power", it comes from the Minish, and it is also worth noting that in ALBW Zelda is not a Sage. It's given by them during The War of the Bound Chest, a self contained event. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure HH claims the two Ganons are the same. And it still has no bearing on weather the Triforce is documented in history/legend, since they are unrelated. [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 22:16, 14 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :Again, more or less errors? Also, on the subject of Zelda's reaction to Link in OoX, who's to say the tradition of naming children Zelda doesn't extend to twins? [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 01:52, 15 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :Also, on the subjecto of the IW, ALttP states in the manual and implies in game that he obtained the Triforce ''in the Sacred Realm''-A stark contrast to HH. |
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| − | :It brings more problems. Dude, just because you prefer your version doesn't mean there's not problems with it, even if you don't see them as such.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 13:55, 15 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :Can I have a specific example other than the ones I have disproved above? 20:13, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) |
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| − | :You ''didn't'' disprove them, is what I'm saying. You said why ''you personally'' don't feel they're problems, but you cited no evidence, and you keep bringing up strawmen like the claim that TMC is after OoT. You're just kind of giving your opinion at this point.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 21:23, 15 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :How have I not disproved them, at least how the "Light Force" has no bearing on public knowledge of the Triforce, and that the Master Sword MUST be somewhere during the events of TMC due to at the very least SS? The sole problem you presented at first was how "The Triforce and MS can't be a part of Legend"-Which again, is based solely on lack of in-game reference to the subject, where the Triforce is clearly depicted in Hyrule Castle, the Market, the Royal Crypt, and on the Four Sword as strange as the latter is. Also, I never said FSA was the IW. So if there's anything else that you think is a problem I brought up, please remind me. Also "I personally" was never used. In fact, I'm trying to keep my personal opinions out of this, and play the Devil's Advocate as straight as I can. If you want, I can also start citing the ALttP manual. Finally... how is the suggestion TMC takes place after OoT in any way a strawman? [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 22:20, 15 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Sorry, I mispoke, I meant the OoT-IW conflation. Your argument has been focused on "proving that wrong", and yet no one, especially not the Historia, is making that claim. |
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| − | ::I used italics, not quotation marks. I wasn't quoting you about "personally", just describing what you were doing. |
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| − | ::The Master Sword does have to be somewhere, yes. However, every other game it appears in shows that it has amassed a significant legend behind it, and yet TMC depicts ''none'' of that -- neither does it depict the Triforce, although it ''does'' depict patterns of Three Force Gems, as does Phantom Hourglass. This indicates that TMC should be placed ''exactly'' where Nintendo placed it, and you've offerred no reason to believe differently. For this, and many other reasons, it's way more inconsistent to place it later in the timeline. If you're not offering ''actual'' contradictions between the Hyrule Historia and the other parts of the canon, stuff that we can ''actually report on'' in the wiki, then you're just foruming, and this would be an inappropriate place to do so.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 13:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | And these "Three Force Gems" are closely associated with the Royal Family in a manner consistent with the Triforce, and they are JUST three force gems? Seems legit. And here's one (of several) actual contradictions for you: The NOJ ALttP manual states that Ganon found the Sacred Realm by accident/chance (Depending on the translation) and obtained the whole Triforce with his first touch, then couldn't leave the Dark World because the 4th (I believe) Maiden claims he didn't know how, and Hyrule was fully intact at the time of his sealing[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 16:34, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::"One day, quite by accident, a gate to the Golden Land of the Triforce was opened by a gang of thieves skilled in the black arts." |
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| − | ::OoT depicts that accident: Link opened the door to the Master Sword, and ''absolutely'' did not mean to open the door for Ganondorf to the Triforce. |
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| − | ::As for the Triforce, the story just says "the Triforce". It doesn't specify the complete thing, and so OoT's retcon that the Triforce splits is still compatible with the terminology used in the first games -- "the Triforce" of Wisdom, etc. It's not entirely consistent with the original intent, but it's workable, as intended by OoT. The story with Link and Zelda in the Adult Link portion of the game, revealing the truth about what happened to the Triforce, is something known only to Zelda and the other sages, occuring during the "dark power began to flow" portion of the original narrative. |
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| − | ::Keep in mind that, per the nature of the framing device, the backstory is a ''legend'' and thus open to embellishment. Only what we actually see happening in the games (or are told Word of God, as with the Historia) can be considered to be 100% accurate.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 18:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::It is, however, reiterated in part by the Maidens, who should have obtained this knowledge from the Sages as their decendants. And if this "legend" theory/thing is true, we'd have to bring into question the Triforce's origin as well. Which, spoiler alert, no one has done (Yet). And the wording implies the gang itself (BTW never mentioned to be skilled in "Black Arts" by NOJ) opened the door not Link. Plus, the Triforce granted Ganon a wish: which for all intents and purposes indicates he MUST have obtained the True Force.[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 19:48, 19 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :The ALttP backstory is ''specifically'' framed as a legend, whereas the Historia, to my knowledge, is not. The Maiden info would also necessarily be hearsay; one of the (I believe explicit) intentions of framing the series as Legends is that it allows a lot of leeway in canonicity. I have personally seen people bring ''every single bit of secondhand info'' into question on forums, based on that facet alone -- the Historia is one of the few sources of "trustable Word of God" (beyond the Words of the Gods within the series itself, like Fi or the Light Spirits) that we have. So, yes, people have questioned it, and the current [[Triforce]] article is primarily sourced to the Historia. |
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| − | :Also, Ganondorf ''did'' obtain the True Force -- after prying it from Link and Zelda's cold, dead hands. Ocarina and the Historia retcon this as being a little-known facet of his rise to power.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :If Zelda was dead... how did "Seven" sages seal him, hm? And furthermore, where was their King to command them to close the gates of the Dark World? And furthermore... isn't it just the slightest bit odd that out of all the "Legend" backstories... only this one turns out to be false, and is only contradicted by material outside of the games? And just look at the timeline with the dev teams in mind... notice anything odd?[[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 23:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::A lot, perhaps most, of the legends given as backstory turn out to have massaged things or be omitting pertinent details. That doesn't mean they're "false", just "incomplete". |
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| − | ::Probably the same way Zelda isn't one of the Seven Sages in ALBW. Or presumably she still has family around, otherwise the bloodline would have been caput. Or her ghost did it -- most of the other sages are implied to have been dead at that point anyway. King of Red Lions was a ghost in TWW, he got stuff done.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 16:50, 23 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :Mind if I have an example that contradicts in-game events? [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 17:12, 23 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Honestly, I don't personally have time to go through the whole thing and write it all up, but [https://www.google.com/search?q=plot+holes+zelda&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=&safe=active&gfe_rd=ssl&ei=cuP4U4-zIsGa8Aa8m4HIBw this] should serve as a primer.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 18:55, 23 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Off the top of my head, the way time travel is claimed to work is wildly inconsistent between games. You've got the sevensage/eightsage thing, where ALBW straight-up depicts an eigth sage during the ALttP story. There's most of what is said about Ambi or Nayru in OoA, which is a game that highlights that only Link knows the truth. Etc.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 18:59, 23 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :1: What eighth sage? 2: I didn't find any actual legends that contradict anything. Just random things that are really bordering on nitpicking. [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 19:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :1: Play ALBW. Look at the tapestries depicting ALttP. 2: Almost the entire backstory of FS does not match the events of TMC. And that's not just a question of timeline placement -- TMC is ''explicitly'' a prequel to FS. Most of what Shad claims about the Oocca turns out to be not entirely true. etc.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 02:11, 24 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :And? The story of the Boy with but a Sword and TMC are two entirely different things. And I'm still not seeing the problem with the Tapestries. [[User:Hwrdjacob|Hwrdjacob]] ([[User talk:Hwrdjacob|talk]]) 02:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | == Downsizing == |
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| − | After reading the discussion over at [[Zelda Wiki:Hyrule Castle#Excessively long articles|Hyrule Castle]] about over-sized articles, I've been considering ways to downsize this one. One solution would be to split the four timelines (Unified, Downfall, Child and Adult) into their own separate sub-pages (i.e. "Zelda Timeline/Adult Timeline"), or even full pages (i.e. just "Adult Timeline"). The summary paragraphs (which contain details on the games that occur in each timeline) beneath the current headings could remain on this page, while the rest of the information could be moved. My only concern with this would be that the name "Downfall Timeline" is fan-created, which is fine by me, but may be a problem for people who think this would make the wiki seem unprofessional. |
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| − | Another, albeit more complex, solution would be to make separate pages for each of the so-called "Eras". Although some, such as "The Force Era", would probably be fine as separate pages, others, such as "The Era of Prosperity", would most likely end up as stubs. This may change as we gain more knowledge with the English release of Hyrule Historia, but for now there's not much we can do. Personally, I prefer the former idea, as it would be simpler, and would keep most of the information in the same place. Anyway, these are just a couple of ideas, and if anybody else has any I'd like to hear them. {{:User:Dannyboy601/sig}} 17:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I'm kind of on the opinion that this is one article for which expecting a small article is just expecting too much. This article is always destined to be one of the largest articles on the wiki. We could seperate the four timelines into four different pages but that might make things more confusing, rather than less so. Also, the Downfall Timeline thing already bugs me as it is. Gametrailers probably had it best with their "Fallen Hero" (I think that was it) title. That way all three timelines are named after the state of Link at the end of OoT. Not to go too off topic, but would anyone actually be opposed to it being named this way? I was thinking of renaming it thusly if nobody was actively against that. |
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| − | :Aside from that, with the English release of HH nearing, I think we should just wait and see. Personally I'm not against having pages for each era, but we'd still need a page like this to cover it all. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 21:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I do think this page can be cut down, but in a different way. Meaning no offense to those who helped put together the new timeline page on such short notice, ever since HH was released, I feel like the quality of writing of this article has been diminished quite a bit. The "Chronology of the Legend of Zelda Series" drags on and on and is quite frankly a chore to read. As opposed to being a retelling of ''Zelda'' from start to finish, I feel like this article should focus on the content that's unique to Hyrule Historia, namely the stuff that goes on between games. Personally, that's what interests me in this article. If I wanted a refresher on the games' plots, I'd just play through the games. |
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| − | ::In short, I think this article can be effectively downsized with concise writing. That is, focusing on HH-exclusive content (i.e. the events in between games) and cutting down information from individual games' plots, as they're already covered on the game articles are mostly dead weight here. {{:User:Hylian King/sig}} 00:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::It might be beneficial to do what Hylian King says. The games' plots are summarized elsewhere, and so should be linked out. "Full Article Here" or something, and then continue on with the relevant information that should ''actually'' be in the article. --[[User:Xizor|Xizor]] 00:37, 3 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::I agree, a lot of pages can be dealt with just using better writing. This wiki is fantastic, but the writing is not always the best. On pages like this we need to get to the point concisely. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 02:53, 3 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::That's actually a really good idea, HK. We talk about the world's creation, then say "This precedes the events of SS." Then after that we go "After the events of SS, blah blah blahbitty blah." Gets to the point without being redundant. Plus, we can just link to the game pages, maybe even directly link to the story in each. Cuts down the article without getting stupid about it.{{:User:Justin/sig}} 04:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::::Yeah, that definitely seems like the best idea. Cuts down on the unnecessary long summaries of the game's events and focuses more on what HH brought to the table. --[[User:Dany36|Dany36]] 05:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::::Is it absolutely necessary to cut down the article? I think it is quite convenient to have summaries of each game on the same page. Some may prefer this rather than looking at (currently) 16 pages to find the relevant info described in detail. If there are severe technical problems with pages of this size though then ok :/ [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 20:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | I know how you feel, but there are technical problems which come with large articles like this. In addition to that, readers experience long loading times, which can be even worse for our mobile users, and if I recall correctly, they make up somewhere between 20-30% of our readers.{{:User:Justin/sig}} 06:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :If the article is to be cut down then another possibility (similar to the one Dannyboy601 proposed) is to split it into two instead of four (the less pages the better!). The Unified and Downfall timelines could stay here while the other two can be moved to another page except for their leading paragraphs. This will cut down the page to about 65KB. [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 19:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | My comment is slightly late, but if anyone is still listening, here is my comment. The page should be split into ''three'' parts. One part should be the Unified Timeline or the events before Oot. Page number two should be Downfall Timeline, and page three should be Child and Adult Timelines. It compromises everybodies ideas and it splits up the current page into evenly sized articles. Try that. [[User:InvisibleGanon|InvisibleGanon]] ([[User talk:InvisibleGanon|talk]]) 01:38, 1 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :That could even work best if the links to the other articles were sort of choose-your-own-adventure style. |
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| − | :Unified Timeline >> "To lose against Ganon, go to [[Downfall Timeline]]", etc.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 13:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Well, I think this article could do very well to NOT be split. I don't really exactly want this to become some kind of disambiguation page. One thing we could do instead is instead of explaining each game in extreme detail, we could have a main article: (insert game here) listing the article that that game is associated with. We could then go into more detail as Hylian King said with what happened in between the games such as the Hyrulean Civil War and the Interloper War and such.[[User:Frozenfire71|Frozenfire71]] ([[User talk:Frozenfire71|talk]]) 23:43, 7 June 2015 (UTC) |
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| − | == Hyrule Historia's Timeline - Official English Version == |
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| − | I suppose that people will wait until tomorrow (the official release date of January 29th, 2013) for complete confirmation of the 'translation', but here's an image of "Page 69" of ''Hyrule Historia'' (the official English version) that I found posted in a ''Kotaku'' article: |
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| − | '''Official English Version of Page 69''' - http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18cmu1rb7r902jpg/original.jpg |
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| − | '''SOURCE''': http://kotaku.com/5979119/heres-your-first-look-inside-the-glorious-legend-of-zelda-hyrule-historia-collectors-edition |
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| − | I can't believe the day's almost here after all of this waiting, to be honest. XD [[User:Fenyx4|Fenyx4]] 17:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Haha indeed. I'll go ahead and upload that image. Thanks for the link! {{:User:Hylian King/sig}} 01:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == Introductory section == |
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| − | After reading the official translation of page 68 [http://www.zeldauniverse.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Scan-1.jpg (link)], I'm not sure if there is supposed to be a Hyulean narrator. The translation that was done by Glitterberri [http://www.glitterberri.com/hyrule-historia/page-68/ (link)] :"…This is a tale that was passed down by humans such as yourselves…" seemed to me very reminiscent of what Fi says at the beginning of SS.. Still, it is clear that the history is told from an in-universe perspective and this should be mentioned. Also, since the stories change, it is also apparent that the account may not be entirely accurate, meaning that there is some room for individual interpretation. |
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| − | About this section: "Because what is being spun is the flow of history right up until the end of time, we wish for you to touch true adventure with your own hands and '''try to ascertain it for yourself.'''", do you think it is equivalent to the official: "...'''you will be able to discover for yourself the real history of Hyrule'''" ? |
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| − | I was thinking to change the section a bit, e.g. :"The chronology section of Hyrule Historia, consists of a collection of tales passed down by the people of Hyrule. Since the account presented may contain inaccuracies, the editors of the book invite the readers to give their own interpretation regarding the actual events." Any proposals/thoughts? [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 21:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :I think you're reading a bit too much into it. I think they clearly tread a line between being "in-universe" and not intentionally, to leave it a bit vague. The whole book is sort of like that. It doesn't really matter if it's in-universe or not. The point they are making is that it's a fluid thing and might change in future. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 23:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::It can change yes, the justification they give though is that the stories passed down by the people can change (or that parts that are obscure now may become more clear later), not that they, as developers, may change something in the future (i.e retcon). I'm removing the bit about the narrator for now. [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 15:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == "Demonic War" == |
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| − | The game is quite vague about the period this conflict occurred, therefore this section is a bit speculative. The conflict can have a short mention in the FSA section and in Hyrule's page, as it is not really necessary for the conflicts described there to be arranged chronologically (at least not all of them). [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 18:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Sounds fair. {{:User:Hylian King/sig}} 18:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == Two Zelda's == |
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| − | As i understand from this article, there are two Zelda's alive at the time of Zelda 1 and 2, namely the Zelda who split the Triforce of Wisdom and the Sleeping Zelda. Or am I just confused now?--[[User:Grizzfang|Grizzfang]] 19:43, 2 March 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :That is correct. ''The Adventure of Link'' is a direct sequel to ''The Legend of Zelda'', so the Princess Zelda from the latter is still around when Link awakens the Princess that predates either games. {{:User:Pakkun/sig}} 20:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == Useless Theories.... == |
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| − | Since Hyrule Historia contained the official timeline, shouldn't the "Timeline theories" section of the article be deleted? |
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| − | :They are preserved to depict a time when the fandom used to speculate about the timeline. It might need a slight wording change, but we have no intention of deleting the timeline theories.{{:User:Justin/sig}} 11:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | By the way that isn't the official timeline and Nintendo said that they want people to keep talking about the timeline. [[User:The Man Himself|The Man out.]] ([[User talk:The Man Himself|talk]]) 11:39, 9 June 2015 (UTC) |
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| − | == Downfall Timeline Alternate Theory == |
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| − | I was thinking about how the Downfall Timeline fits into the timeline as a whole, and Link being defeated seems like a pretty weak basis for a timeline split - and what if ALttP Link was defeated? Or TP Link, or WW Link? Wouldn't that cause a split in the timeline as well? And if not, what makes OoT Link so special? |
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| − | The other two timeline splits make sense - as a result of the time-travel involved at the end of the game, the Adult Timeline continues on from the point where Link defeated Ganondorf, and was sent back to his childhood, leaving this timeline completely. The Child Timeline starts from when Link arrives back in the time of his childhood - he warns Zelda and the rest of the Royal Family of Ganondorf's treachery. With Ganondorf stopped, the later events of Ocarina of Time never happened, creating the Child Timeline. |
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| − | The Downfall Timeline, on the other hand, appears to be based off the concept of parallel universes. I believe a more plausible and more consistent basis for this timeline is Link returning to his childhood mid-quest. If Zelda sending him back in time creates a timeline split, him sending himself back should logically do the same thing. Throughout the game, Link has to return to his childhood twice - once to go through Beneath the Well and get the Lens of Truth, the other to complete the 'child section' of the Spirit Temple, although it's probably possible to do both in one go. When he went back to his childhood, he changed something - the Kakariko Well was dry, the Dead Hand was... well, dead, and the Silver Gauntlets were gone from the Spirit Temple. While these may not seem like particularly major changes, they would have had some effect on the future. Due to this, he would have returned to a different future than the one he left - another timeline. This would mean he never returned to the one he left, in which he would no longer be there to defeat Ganondorf. |
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| − | To sum up: |
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| − | Downfall Timeline is created when Link returns to the past BEFORE defeating Ganondorf - essentially the Adult Timeline if Link had never existed. This leads to Ganondorf eventually being sealed in the Dark World following the Imprisoning War. This leads to the events of A Link to the Past, the Oracle Series, Link's Awakening, The Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link. |
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| − | Adult Timeline is created after Link defeats Ganondorf, and is sent back to the past. This leaves Hyrule without a hero when Ganondorf escapes his seal and attacks Hyrule, leading to Great Flood, and the events of The Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. |
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| − | Child Timeline is created when Link arrives back in his childhood after being sent back by Zelda. Link's foreknowledge of Ganondorf's plans prevents the original events of Ocarina of Time from happening. Having saved Hyrule, Link leaves to search for Navi, leading to the events of Majora's Mask. The warning to the Royal Family leads to the Ganondorf's imprisonment, attempted execution, and subsequent exile into the Twilight Realm. This leads to the events of Twilight Princess, and later, Four Swords Adventures. |
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| − | Does this sound like a plausible theory? |
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| − | [[User:Link23|Link23]] ([[User talk:Link23|talk]]) 02:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :It's certainly plausible, but I find it unlikely. For the most part, time travel in OoT seems centered on the idea of a wormhole- a "tear" in the spacetime continuum that forms a tunnel between the past and future. This tunnel opens whenever Link draws and replaces the Master Sword, thus forming a firm link between the Unified, "pre-Child" timeline and the Adult Timeline. However, at the end of the game, Zelda uses her power to transport Link back to an earlier point in time, ''before'' the wormhole's point of origin in the "pre-Child" timeline, and then permanently seals the wormhole by laying the Master Sword to rest and closing the Door of Time. It is this that allows the Child Timeline to be formed in the first place. Thus, the Child and Adult timelines also exist in two different universes, sharing a common connection to the Unified timeline but otherwise being distinct from one another. |
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| − | :As for the Downfall timeline, I personally like it as a concept and can't really understand why everyone makes such a fuss over it. In all probability, it was made up on the spot as a deus ex machina of sorts, but this doesn't make the concept itself inherently flawed. As you said, a pseudo-Downfall timeline should occur in every game whenever Link dies- and, according to quantum mechanics, they do. We just have yet to see them because no games have occured in them yet. I actually think another timeline split happens in ''Skyward Sword''... though that's a discussion for a forum, I suppose. [[User:Setras|Setras]] ([[User talk:Setras|talk]]) 04:50, 9 September 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Quantum mechanics, that was the word I was looking for! |
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| − | You make a good point, though - I was mainly thinking of how the Downfall timeline seems a bit irrelevant to the others, but it's just an idea I had. |
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| − | [[User:Link23|Link23]] ([[User talk:Link23|talk]]) 09:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :''Downfall Timeline is created when Link returns to the past BEFORE defeating Ganondorf - essentially the Adult Timeline if Link had never existed.'' According to HH though, Link is defeated and not merely absent. Moreover, I don't think the OoT Sages would be able to seal Ganon without Link's help. Link may have been defeated but he could have also weakened Ganon enough for the sealing to occur. |
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| − | :Regardless, the talk pages are reserved for discussions on how to improve the page, so we are off-topic :P Welcome to the wiki by the way :) [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] ([[User talk:Zeldafan1982|talk]]) 17:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | {{OT}} |
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| − | == A Link Between Worlds == |
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| − | Will events from A Link Between Worlds be added to this? I feel like they ought to regardless of whether or not they were in Hyrule Historia. We know the official timeline placement as told by Nintendo (between Link's Awakening and The Legend of Zelda) So why not put it in there? [[User:Ongs|Ongs]] ([[User talk:Ongs|talk]]) 22:58, 24 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :I think it should be added, but it would be best to "let the dust settle," on the issue. There are a few disputed or unclear details in the game. Specifically, the back story of A Link to the Past appears to have been changed (or new details added) - the game clearly states that the Triforce split into 3 parts at the end, with one remaining with the "royal family," one being sealed away with Ganon (how does that work if he's dead?), and another vanished to appear when the time was right. |
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| − | :There's also the topic of when the back story of Lorule actually occurs. It happens prior to the events of A Link Between Worlds, but is it after Link's Awakening? Or did the back story happen during A Link to the Past? These are all things that need to be decided. |
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| − | :Simply put, I think it would be wise to wait to add the information until the game has been around a bit longer. --[[User:Yumil|Joshua (Yumil)]] ([[User talk:Yumil|talk]]) 03:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | I agree it is a good idea to wait. However as for the problems you've stated with continuity, I figured that the Triforce was split again after Link touched it at the beginning of Oracle of Seasons. However, I guess this doesn't really make sense given that that Link had already proven he had a balance of the three virtues and it wouldn't split when he touched it. I also think that the origin of Lorule can just be addressed along with the rest of the A Link Between World info. Just as it is for the origin of the Twilight Realm because its not entirely clear when everything with the Dark Interlopers happened but its just placed with the other Twilight Princess stuff. [[User:Ongs|Ongs]] ([[User talk:Ongs|talk]]) 00:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :I agree with the addition as it is important to mention that the Unified Triforce is enshrined in Hyrule Castle's grounds, and Link and Zelda make their first wish of it. This leads to the obvious conclusion that the game portrays the beginning of Hyrule's Golden Era, the time when the Triforce came into possession of the Royal Family, which is further evidenced by Nintendo's own assertion it occurs between Link's Awakening and the original Zelda. Obviously the main event in the timeline that would clearly fit the events shown at the end of the game, is the beginning of Hyrule's Golden Era. The Golden Era section should be split into two, "The Beginning" with the "main article" being the "A Link Between Worlds" article, about how the Triforce was unified and came into possession of the Royal Family, and then a rewrite of the currently existing section. Many fans suspect Lorule is possibly the alternate Hyrule of the Majora's Mask "Child Link" timeline, and sometime after Ganon's defeat, the Triforce was destroyed in a misguided attempt to stop someone like Ganon from getting access to that Hyrule's Triforce. It was sometime after that point that Hyrule became corrupt and the name was changed to "Lorule" and Zelda, also corrupted, became "Hilda". I also think that theory needs to be written up on the Lorule page, as it appears to be a common viewpoint, and would also make sense of the director's earlier cryptic comments that "Majora's Mask" had something specifically to do with the finale of this game.[[User:Colliric|Colliric]] ([[User talk:Colliric|talk]]) 01:54, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | The area Link and Zelda visit at the end of the game is not Hyrule Castle; it is the Sacred Realm. Speak to Zelda before approaching the Triforce and she will say "How rare to visit Hyrule's Sacred Realm." Furthermore, it identical to the Sacred Realm in Lorule that you visit moments before. |
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| − | How the Royal Family actually gets the Triforce is still unclear (and probably irrelevent for adding A Link Between Worlds to this page). If Link touched the Triforce in A Link to the Past and it split into three after he makes a wish, then what makes it not split into three again in A Link Between Worlds? --[[User:Yumil|Joshua (Yumil)]] ([[User talk:Yumil|talk]]) 02:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Having reviewed the opening sequence of the game again(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve1MG5Xee64), it is CLEARLY explained that it was the Royal Family(or someone close to them), sometime after Link's Awakening, took the decision to split the Triforce into three parts due to the temptation it was causing for rivals, like Ganon, to steal the full Triforce and get it's power, and NOT anything that Link did. Someone else touched the triforce and wished it to be separated back into it's original three parts. So it is obviously supposed to be sometime AFTER the Oracle games that the Triforce was split up into three, and NOT during those two games. It is explained in the game that the Royal Family of Hyrule(or the person who seperated the Triforce) did not foresee that the Triforce's three parts would naturally/spiritually gravitate towards the traditional owners and become part of them again, unless the wish to separate it was more specific(Like say, they wished separate it physically only, as is the case in the NES games). Zelda absorbed the Triforce of Wisdom, Link the Triforce of Courage, and Ganon was restored by the Triforce of Power. This is CLEARLY explained in the opening sequence of the game, so there should be no arguement that somehow "Link split it up by touching it" when it is explained that it was the Royal Family of Hyrule that did it. So it is important to mention that this clearly shows the restoration of the Triforce to the Royal Family, who now are aware of the ramifications of wishing the triforce to return to it's three parts, as well as the ramifications of wishing it destroyed(as Lorule shows Zelda what would happen to Hyrule, and is itself possibly one of the "alternate timeline" Hyrules). The other user obviously did not pay full attention to the opening scene, and postulated that it could have been Link that split it up immediatly after ALTTP. While the first user got the point correct(Royal Family, or someone close to them, Impa perhaps? split it up), but didn't recognise that "Legends" do not always follow in a complete chronological "start to finish" story, so the event could have occurred any-time following the end of Alttp, and most likely occurred after Link's Awakening(given the complete Triforce was shown in the Oracle games). You can speculate that the Oracle games may have "driven the point home" to the Royal Family(or whoever broke the Triforce back up), and sometime after hearing of those events they made the decision to wish the Triforce split back into three parts.[[User:Colliric|Colliric]] ([[User talk:Colliric|talk]]) 03:27, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Oh hell, you're right. I had neglected the line in the prologue that said the Royal Family decided to split the Triforce apart. Doesn't that put all contested continuity errors to rest then? That explains why the Triforce is split at the beginning of the game and back together by the end of the game for the events of The Golden Era to take place. I feel as if we should have a "mock-up" A Link Between Worlds section in the discussion area so people can go and edit it and figure out what it is people aren't agreeing on. Once everyone agrees on it then we can put it into the article. [[User:Ongs|Ongs]] ([[User talk:Ongs|talk]]) 05:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Placement, sure. The fact that there are ''seven sages'' in the backstory, rather than six + Zelda, is a direct contradiction to...what, twenty years of Zelda?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 05:16, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | I read an article that was suggesting that perhaps the prologue was referring to the events of Ocarina of Time as well as A Link to the Past and that may be where the seven sages comes from. The prologue says that the seven sages locked away the Triforce in the Sacred Realm which is consistent with the lore in Ocarina of Time and then that Link teamed with the descendants of the seven sages to defeat Ganon in A Link to the Past. Just because they are the descendants of the seven sages doesn't necessarily mean there has to be seven of them. The only problem with this theory is that it suggests that the jump in time ignores the Imprisoning War and Ganon being sealed in the Sacred Realm along with the creation of the Dark World. But perhaps, since the prologue is meant to be a legend these details were lost to legend and perhaps due to the nature of legends it is bound to have inconsistencies anyway. [[User:Ongs|Ongs]] ([[User talk:Ongs|talk]]) 05:33, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :The portraits at the beginning explicitly depict Link, Zelda, and seven robed figures, which makes it a plot error. Within the game, there is no indication that this number is incorrect: the power to release Ganon is obtained by kidnapping the seven sage descendants, plus Zelda. While it is ''possible'' to construct a conspiracy retcon to resolve this (true legend (from a few generations ago(!)) lost to time, Zelda's bloodline split, whatever), it is by no means indicated by anything within the game, which makes it an error of very large proportions.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 06:03, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | I'm not sure if I ever saw that video before...even having beaten the game. The only backstory I was aware of is the one inside Hyrule Castle. It uses some of the same images, but the wording is more concise and confusing. (I'm seeing now that the video plays if you leave the title screen up long enough) |
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| − | However, I do think that back story in the video clearly explains what has happened - except the fact of how Ganon ended up with the Triforce of Power after the Royal Family split it. I can accept the idea that these three individuals seem destined to always have the pieces, but the game doesn't specifically say that. Still, I think a lot of unexplained differences are cleared up. --[[User:Yumil|Joshua (Yumil)]] ([[User talk:Yumil|talk]]) 06:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Having read some quotes from the game (I haven't played the game yet), my current view is that the game gives an inaccurate account of past events: ''"There is a legend oft told in Hyrule Kingdom. It is the legend of the Triforce, once kept within Hyrule itself. Said to be a gift of the gods, the Triforce could grant a wish of all those who touched it. So of course, many wanted to get their hands on it. Wars were fought for the Triforce. The royal family summoned the Seven Sages, who sealed the Triforce in the Sacred Realm. But a thief of notorious repute broke into the Sacred Realm and claimed the Triforce. With its power, he became the Demon King Ganon, who sought to dominate all Hyrule. But just as Ganon had the kingdom in his evil clutches... a legendary hero answered the call of Hyrule's princess. And this here, wielding the Master Sword, took up a quest to challenge Ganon's might. He joined with the descendants of the Seven Sages to seal the Demon King in darkness. The Triforce was divided into three - its tempting power out of any one person's reach. One part stayed with the royal family, while another slipped into Ganon's possession. Legend says that the third part found its home in the heart of the hero eternal... And while legends come to us from the distant past, others have yet to be written... "'' |
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| − | The most obvious error is the fact that the events of OoT and ALttP are treated as one. Given that, I think that the bit where Ganon was "sealed" should (at the very least) be taken with a grain of salt. We know from ALttP that Ganon was merely killed (not sealed), so it's possible that the confusion is due to Ganon being sealed during the OoT era, and that the actual events got mixed up. So, I'm proposing that we should not assume that Ganon made a return between ALttP and ALBW where he was supposedly sealed. |
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| − | Simply, the account presented in ALBW is not to be trusted, it's just an.. amusing conflation of various events. The latter could be mentioned as well, I think. Opinions? [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] ([[User talk:Zeldafan1982|talk]]) 17:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :That's why I wrote all of this after ''Link's Awakening''. Link of ''A Link to the Past'' killed Ganon two times which immediately led to the events of ''Link's Awakening''. Now it was revealed that Ganon went to the Sacred Realm and returned to Hyrule. In ''A Link to the Past'', the Sacred Realm was the Dark World. And the Dark World wasn't mentined but was Lorule instead. He stole the Triforce from the Sacred Realm, kidnapped by Zelda and was defeated by Link afterwards. No wonder that Link was still able to defeat the evil god, because Link was powerful after everything that happened in his life. I don't know who were the Seven Sages, but I assume the Seven Sages of that time weren't the ancestors of {{ALBW}}'s Seven Sages but the Seven Maidens, the descendants of the Wise Men. They looked female. The original sages they mentioned in ''A Link to the Past'' were the chosen ones from {{OOT}} and there were seven of them. |
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| − | :I'm still trying to be on track about this, so yeah. Now I have another new theory... And the backstory of ''A Link Between Worlds'' most likely took place directly after ''Link's Awakening''.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 19:28, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Since I haven't played the game I might be mistaken, so correct me if the game says otherwise. My objection is that there is no need to assume that Ganon makes a return between the Oracles and ALBW. The ALBW backstory says that Ganon was sealed, but rather than this being a separate event between the Oracles and ALBW, it could simply be a conflation of OoT and ALttP. What I mean is that this bit ''"But a thief of notorious repute broke into the Sacred Realm and claimed the Triforce. With its power, he became the Demon King Ganon, who sought to dominate all Hyrule. But just as Ganon had the kingdom in his evil clutches.."'' refers to OoT, the next one ''"a legendary hero answered the call of Hyrule's princess. And this here, wielding the Master Sword, took up a quest to challenge Ganon's might. He joined with the descendants of the Seven Sages"'' obviously refers to ALttP, and the last bit ''"to seal the Demon King in darkness."'' refers again to OoT. (On a sidenote this bit ''"Wars were fought for the Triforce. The royal family summoned the Seven Sages, who sealed the Triforce in the Sacred Realm"'' conflates the IW with the war that occurred before Rauru sealed the Sacred Realm with the Temple of Time). So, the way I see it, the only thing that needs to be added between the Oracles and ALBW is that at some point the Royal Family decided to split the Triforce. |
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| − | ::Also, I don't think it's very clear whether, after the Triforce split, the ToP went immediately to Ganon or ended up at some point to his possession. We could just mention that the ToP "slipped into Ganon's possession". [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] ([[User talk:Zeldafan1982|talk]]) 20:25, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I understand what you're saying, I mean... It was intended to have more references to ''Ocarina of Time'''s Downfall Timeline just as it does for ''A Link to the Past'', and they mixed things up so we still don't know. Ganon died two times, the events of ''Oracle'' and ''Link's Awakening'' were hardly mentioned. And this time, he was sealed. He was never sealed in ''Oracle'' and ''A Link to the Past'', he was destroyed by Link. |
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| − | ::If I understand clearly, is that the paintings mixed things up the events of ''Ocarina of Time'', the Imprisoning War and ''A Link to the Past''. To reveal something to you, the events were mentioned in the game ''in order''. Link was actually with Zelda, the Seven Sages and Ganon was still alive in darkness while the Triforce split, the events occurred on Hyrule (not the Dark World) and Link didn't set sail after saving the world, it's pretty clear what it means. |
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| − | ::In the game, it was shown that the backstory and the legends of old told in the game ''actually happened'', they are all true. All of them led to the events of ''A Link Between Worlds'', which of them were the most important objects Ravio, Hilda and Yuga lacked. And Ganon's soul was released from his seal placed on him hundreds of years ago by Link and the Seven Maidens (who are not only sages but Zelda's relatives). And the Triforce was split after his defeat. But I don't want to spoil everything to you since you still haven't played the game. I've watched the whole walkthrough. |
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| − | ::I understand, we don't know if it's actually ''Ocarina of Time''/''A Link to the Past'' where Link and the others sealed Ganon, because of that it's better to leave these informations after ''Link's Awakening''.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 06:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::If it is evident from the game (not just those legends) that there is some sort of seal upon Ganon, then it is logical to assume that Ganon was sealed at some point after the Oracles and before ALBW. My point is though, that it is incorrect to assume that, based solely on the legends, because they are clearly erroneous (for one, the events of OoT and ALttP are treated as one). So my question is, does the game show clearly that Ganon has a seal upon him or he is merely "dead" and Yuga wants to resurrect him? |
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| − | :::If the latter is true, given that OoT and ALttP are being conflated, it is better to assume that the "sealing" simply refers to OoT. |
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| − | :::What is definitely true, is that the Triforce spit sometime after the Oracles. That doesn't mean (unless the game clearly shows the opposite) that Ganon was also sealed after the Oracles. |
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| − | :::Basically, this is a point where we need a consensus: is the sealing another event after the Oracles or not? Then the articles can be edited accordingly. |
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| − | :::Edit: I opened a thread [http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/zelda-theorizing/164825-albw-backstory-ganon-sealed-after-the-oracles.html here] so that we can (hopefully) get more feedback on the issue. [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] ([[User talk:Zeldafan1982|talk]]) 22:55, 17 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::Gonna be blunt on this: your description of "sealing" and "death" essentially being the same thing in Japanese is probably correct. Ganon's defeat in Hyrule Historia is even described as him being "suppressed", and in A Link to the Past the concept of Ganon being "totally destroyed" was a NoA creation. As shown here: http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/text/z3translation/z3_game_quotes.html#ending The term used is more vague and implies the potential of return. So yes, while Ganon was "destroyed", that doesn't mean he would come back, and as a Demon King he is essentially eternal. The term seal was probably used to correct the implication that he will never come back. Yuga's revival of Ganon is probably no different, in essence, from his revival in the Oracle games, except that at some point the Maidens are implied have done something extra to stop him from being revived again. This may of occurred after the Oracle games, while Ganon was still "dead". Sealing his soul, if you will. |
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| − | ::::Castlevania and Dracula is a very good example, by the way. There are a lot of similarities between Ganon and Dracula, really. |
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| − | ::::Incidentally, once the game is released in Japan, a lot of this will be easier to figure out, as we can compare the terminology used. I suspect the Japanese versions will match up a little better, as usual. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 21:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::::I was thinking that maybe we should mention that it is not clear whether he was sealed or not. Also, I don't think we should take as a given that Ganon made a return between the Oracles and ALBW. I wouldn't say it is impossible, but it is speculative. [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] ([[User talk:Zeldafan1982|talk]]) 00:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::::I certainly don't think he was revived again after the Oracle games (aside from AST if that's canon, but that game doesn't really adversely affect the timeline in any way since he's defeated again), certainly not in some special event we do not see. The "seal" occurs at the moment of his last defeat (meaning his soul is sealed), or a further seal designed to stop him being revived again (such as the seal on Vaati in FSA, which is maintained by the Maidens). The implication of ALBW is that he is sealed by being defeated. We even see his body collapsing, just like in ALttP and the Oracle games, and it does not depict anything other than Link destroying him. This defeat is probably the "seal", it's just that the legend refers to it as a sealing (presumably because, to most people of Hyrule, Ganon never dies since he came back at least once already). The legend in ALBW is an extreme simplification of events already seen in other games, the only new part is that the Triforce split and that Ganon then obtained the Triforce of Power (while still sealed). |
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| − | ::::::Minor note, but if AST was canon it actually serves as a slightly better starting point then the end of the Oracle games, as it reveals that Ganon's spirit remains alive while his body is destroyed, while in the Oracle games his revival was incomplete. Hyrule Historia never stated it wasn't canon, it just didn't include it in the timeline. Like I said though, it doesn't really affect the timeline, but it does elaborate on Ganon's "dead but not really dead" status. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 19:48, 20 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::::::::It might be too speculative for this page, but I put in a theory on my user page yesterday about how to reconcile ALBW's backstory with ALttP. It involves Ganon's spirit being split into fragments and sealed in the Maidens/Sages. This would explain why Yuga needed their portraits to revive Ganon. [[User:Setras|Setras]] ([[User talk:Setras|talk]]) 19:58, 20 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | If you mind, one of guys theorized is that the legends of olds mixed the events of {{OoT}} and {{ALttP}}, that [[Ganon]] being "defeated" does not necessarily mean "dead" but "sealed"? Because it was made clear that when Ganon '''dies''', he reincarnates, unless he's revived. He revives all the time... |
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| − | I have a theory, and sorry about that but in moments like this, we speculate. Some infos I've looked stated that it was Ganon's soul that was revived in the middle of {{ALBW}}. But the game itself confirmed both sources: Ganon was actually resurrected by Yuga or that Ganon's soul was released from darkness. It required the [[Seven Sages]]'s power to remove the seal of darkness (the developers mixed the Seven Sages from ''Ocarina of Time'' and [[Wise Men]] from ''A Link to the Past'' so it's very confusing). But [[Impa]] felt that the Demon King was resurrecting himself inside his joint form with Yuga, until Yuga got twisted by Ganon's overflow and the Triforce of Power's divinity, it was Ganon's personality at the end of ''A Link Between Worlds''. So, Ganon was actually resurrected, but he was weak, then Yuga consumed his soul, while Ganon slowly regain his strength and consciousness. |
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| − | If it actually occurs between the events of ''Oracle'' and ''Link's Awakening'', then Ganon might had not kidnapped Princess Zelda, and had not completely taken over Hyrule, he might not stole the Triforce from the Sacred Realm, and Link destroys him once and for all. Link leaves, Hyrule remains peaceful, Ganon will reincarnate, the Triforce will remain whole forever and he leaves on a boat for [[Koholint Island]], and the events of ''The Legend of Zelda'' will happen centuries later. |
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| − | The backstory of ''A Link Between Worlds'' revealed that Ganon had "returned" '''to [[Hyrule]]''' and took over, he '''stole the Triforce''' from the Sacred Realm and became a deity, he kidnapped and imprisoned Princess Zelda, then Link came to fight Ganon after listening to Zelda's call. After defeating Ganon with the Master Sword, Link saves Zelda and joined forces with the descendants of the chosen [[Seven Sages]] from ''Ocarina of Time'' (they weren't the Seven Maidens but ''A Link Between Worlds'' ancestors) who sealed Ganon away into darkness '''alive'''. Link and Zelda retrieves the Triforce and it split for unknown reasons; one remains with the Royal Family of the Goddess Hylia, one within the spirit of the Legendary Hero, one sealed along with the manifestation of the Demon King's hatred. ''A Link Between Worlds'' reveal the past events actually happened just as it was spoken in legends. So, all of it happened after Ganon was destroyed by Link and somehow got revived later. |
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| − | I know some of you might have trouble figuring out how it truly happened but it turned out it happened that way some unknown amount of time after ''A Link to the Past'' which led to the events of ''A Link Between Worlds''. Eiji Aonuma said the game revealed what happened to the incarnation of Link and Zelda after the events of ''A Link to the Past'', so it's actually impossible the backstory is the alternative events of ''A Link to the Past'' or the ''Oracle'' series but being set after ''Link's Awakening'', it sure is. After defeating the evil forces that might threaten Hyrule, Link could still return to his homeland. But if they mixed the backstory of ''A Link Between Worlds'' with ''Ocarina of Time''/''A Link to the Past'', wouldn't you find that quite interesting? We'll leave things the way they are until Eiji confirms the timeline placement of the legends of old.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 21:19, 20 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Considering the fact that Oracle Link has the Triforce of Courage emblem despite retrieving the whole Triforce, maybe ''he'' split the Triforce when he touched it and was sent to Labrynna/Holodrum? Or it happened behind the scenes so that Ganon had Power when he was revived.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 22:49, 20 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Sorry, you're mixing things up again. The Triforce did not split after ''A Link to the Past'', that was the mark of the Triforce, like {{AOL}}. The right is supposed to shine when he possess the Triforce of Courage. It always stayed in the Sacred Realm after Link defeated Ganon for the first time. It was the Essence of the Triforce talking to Link in ''A Link to the Past'' and the ''Oracle'' series, he became known as the Hero of Legend. Ganon and Princess Zelda weren't in possession of the Triforce pieces until the it split into three... I don't know how it was found in [[Hyrule Castle]] then returned to the Sacred Realm again. Its essence certainly makes the Triforce moves on its own.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 23:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::The Triforce's movement is pretty simple, Link obtains it in ALttP, it gets returned to Hyrule Castle for some time, then eventually is split by unknown means. The Triforce of Wisdom remains with the royal family but the other two pieces are lost, with Ganon somehow obtaining his. How this happens exactly is never elaborated upon. I think it only returns to the Sacred Realm at the end of ALBW, and as we see from the backstory to Zelda II, it doesn't even stay there for long. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 00:40, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Not sure what you are getting at Kryten, but ALBW was confirmed to occur after the Oracle games from a number of sources (and the fact that the Link in the Oracle games is the same one from ALttP). Also, I really don't think you should place too much emphasis on single words in the prologue, it's clear that the prologue is primarily referring to the events of ALttP (it is a sequel, after all). Thus the Link answering the call and defeating Ganon is the same events from ALttP. Anything about Ganon taking over Hyrule isn't literal (although you could argue that Agahnim is Ganon and thus took over Hyrule). There are discrepancies but that's because it's a legend, very briefly covering the events of Ocarina of Time, the Imprisoning War and A Link to the Past into a very short space. It leaves out a LOT of detail and only focuses on the important events. Assuming that a nigh identical event occurred again in between the two games when ALBW is literally a direct sequel to ALttP is assuming a bit too much. It just misses out a lot of detail, that's all. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 00:40, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Really? Because the ending of ''A Link Between Worlds'' immediately led to the Golden Era. They finally had the Triforce in possession after destroying YuGanon, until the king died... The Triforce split into three again before the king died... ''A Link Between Worlds'' takes place hundreds of years after ''Link's Awakening'' and a century or two before ''The Legend of Zelda'' after all... ''A Link Between Worlds'' is an indirect sequel to ''Link's Awakening'' also, a lot of things happened before the events of the new game started. Instead, the new game was the answer to the Downfall Timeline's beginning as well, starting when Adult Link was in possession of the Triforce of Courage, it also revealed what happened to ''A Link to the Past'' Link, Zelda and Ganon, but a lot of details were missing... We may not know the details of ''A Link Between Worlds'''s legends of the hero and the Seven Sages, but it can't be between ''Oracles'' and ''Link's Awakening'' because the Hero of Legend immediately left on a boat after killing Ganon. It can't be an alternative story of ''A Link to the Past'' because Eiji Aonuma said it was sometime after ''A Link to the Past'' and that the game reveals what happened to Link and Zelda of that era long ago before ''A Link Between Worlds'' started. Mixing things up is not a good idea. |
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| − | You guys at least watched the whole walkthrough or played the game, right? You guys will finally know every details that led to ''A Link Between Worlds'' and where it leads to after finishing the game.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 01:33, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Yeah, I did, and no, it doesn't answer how the Triforce got split again between the start of the Oracle games and ALBW. We see it together at the beginning of those games, it isn't mentioned in LA, and the very next game in that timeline is ALBW, where it's split again and has been for some time. |
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| − | :Also, despite what Eiji said, ALBW does ''not'' reference the past ALttP Link and Zelda, beyond a cameo in the backstory that, just,...badly mixes up the stories of ALttP and OoT. |
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| − | :Also, at least the response to me doesn't seem to be addressing what I said, which is just this: |
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| − | *Triforce is together at end of ALttP and beginning of Oracle games |
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| − | *By start of ALBW, the Triforce is split, with Courage being split among the Sages (or at least the ''key'' to Courage), Wisdom to the Royal Family, and Power to Ganon. |
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| − | *Ganon must have obtained the Triforce of Power at some point between being revived at the end of Oracle of Seasons, and the start of A Link Between Worlds. |
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| − | **I think that it got split when we last saw it, and Ganon recieved it as he was being reborn. |
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| − | **Hilariously, the Triforce must have gotten split again between ALBW and LoZ, which is just...good lord the Royal Family sucks at keeping Ganon away from the Triforce. Just...just awful at it (and most things, honestly).[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 03:46, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::I think the Triforce was split just before the start of the Oracle games, when Link was sent away. A voice says "Accept our quest Hero!" as this happens, implying that the Goddesses were acting through (and so in a way, using) the Triforce. SS establishes that gods cannot use the Triforce themselves, and so this would've probably caused the Triforce to split, with the pieces going to Link (who had the mark on his hand), Zelda (in whom it was seemingly dormant), and Ganon. After Ganon's defeat, his spirit was broken into eight fragments, which were sealed within the seven Maidens and the Loyal Sage, and then passed along their line. Link, meanwhile, took the Triforce of Courage with him across the sea and may have expunged it from himself and hidden it, thus necessitating its later summoning by the Sages; while Zelda continued to hand down the Triforce of Wisdom. |
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| − | :::And actually, yes, the Triforce was split again between ALBW and Zelda I. The last king during the Golden Era thought his son, who would succeed him, was unworthy of the whole Triforce, and so he consciously chose to split it himself and sealed the ToC in the Great Palace. This caused the tragedy of Princess Zelda I, and thus set up the events of Zelda I and TAoL. [[User:Setras|Setras]] ([[User talk:Setras|talk]]) 04:01, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | The two of you keep mixing things up -- When something mixed stuff up, don't mix them up any further unless you're still on track, 'cause you'll only be more confused. You guys merge the events of the Downfall Timeline's ''Ocarina of Time'', ''A Link to the Past'', ''Oracle'', ''Link's Awakening'' and the backstory of ''A Link Between Worlds'', '''altogether'''. The backstory is just another story before ''A Link Between Worlds'' which was confirmed that it occurred after the events of ''A Link to the Past''. If it was just simply the events of ''Oracle'' or ''A Link to the Past'', how would those lead to the events of ''A Link Between Worlds'', considering how the story is slightly different than ''A Link to the Past'' itself? And no, the Triforce '''did not''' split after ''Oracle''. It was always whole even after ''A Link to the Past''. Link left, Zelda stayed, Ganon's dead. |
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| − | I've been splitting the ''A Link Between Worlds'''s legends of old away from ''Ocarina of Time'' Downfall Timeline/''A Link to the Past'' and '' Oracle'', let's stop mixing things up. The backstory had nothing in common with ''Oracle''. It's indirectly after ''Oracle'' AND ''Link's Awakening''. He can return to Hyrule at anytime, so he might had stopped Ganon and sealed him. It's a possibility, but it's highly doubtful to be ''A Link to the Past'' or ''Oracle''. It's after those three games, centuries before ''A Link Between Worlds''.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 09:36, 21 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :ALBW occurs after the Oracle games, but that doesn't mean it's backstory occurs after them as well. It's clearly PRIMARILY a retelling of the events of ALttP. The story surrounding Ocarina of Time, the Imprisoning War and ALttP is one of the most complex in the entire series, you can't honestly expect them to go into all that in extensive detail, right? They reduced the information to bare bones events for the sake of having an introduction that doesn't last ten minutes. |
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| − | :There are no flat out contradictions in the backstory (unless you count the seven maidens being depicted alongside Zelda, but that's just a visual), it's just retold in much less detail. The only changes are the precise ordering of events (which is understandable given that Ganon was sealed TWICE, heck, I own Hyrule Historia and it's still kind of confusing), but even the legend isn't totally specific about the order of events, it just tells what happened, rather than when it exactly happened. The whole thing is intentionally extremely vague. It gives no details for why the Triforce was split, how Ganon got his piece, and so on. In many ways it's much like how the introduction to Phantom Hourglass retells The Wind Waker but retells it in a very basic form that completely misses out a lot of key events and details. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 05:00, 22 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :::So ''A Link Between Worlds'' was retelling the events of ''A Link to the Past'' and ''Oracle''? Along with the events of ''Ocarina of Time'' and the Imprisoning War? It did, but the middle and the end wasn't retelling the Great Cataclysm but revealed what happened after Ganon died again in ''Oracle'', before the Triforce got split into three. But I'm glad you understood that. About the Seven Sages, I'm sorry. They weren't Wise Men / Seven Maidens... They were the descendants of the chosen Seven Sages from ''Ocarina of Time''. |
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| − | :::In ''A Link to the Past'', the Seven Maidens were kidnapped by [[Agahnim]] so he could break the seal of the Seven Wise Men. The Seven Wise Men were revealed to be a different kind than those from ''Ocarina of Time''; they are Hylians, as well as Princess Zelda's relatives whom she recruited after the Hero of Time was defeated in the Downfall Timeline. They were the ones who prevented the Imprisoning War. The Royal Family are strong enough to be Hylian Sages themselves. They are the Goddess Hylia's descendants after all. Princess Zelda and the other chosen Six Sages from ''Ocarina of Time'' may or not played a role in the Downfall Timeline, but they have descendants, the ones who locked Ganon away into darkness. The only way to break the seal was to kidnap the Seven Sages descendants' descendants who sealed him and use their power to break it. Legacies of the Seven Wise Men were still in ''A Link Between Worlds'' as well. They were plenty of their descendants in both games anyway. |
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| − | :::Anywho, regardless, it seems to me you're saying that the backstory explains what really happened in the events of ''A Link to the Past'' and ''Oracle'', as one story where Ganon was sealed by the Sages after his defeat. Actually, we players should have figured why the Triforce was split apart: Ganon stole the Triforce and became the Demon King, taken over Hyrule and kidnapped Zelda, got defeated by the Hero chosen by the Triforce itself. The Triforce was split into three which was for the best, no one could've reach the three of them. The seal could've held Ganon for a long time, maybe forever, the Triforce was still protected inside these three so no one could ever touch the whole sacred relic anymore, until their Lorulean counterparts came over to Hyrule... |
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| − | :::Maybe what ''A Link Between Worlds'' did to ''A Link to the Past'' was like what ''Phantom Hourglass'' did to ''The Wind Waker'', but it was something new and different, it can't be a retelling story. At least, you do acknowledge the split of the Tirforce was after ''A Link to the Past'' and ''Oracle'' -- especially after ''A Link to the Past'' just as Eiji Aonuma confirmed, but it wasn't before ''Link's Awakening'', indirectly after his adventure in Koholint Island. After confirming that ''A Link to the Past'' was after the Downfall Timeline's ''Ocarina of Time'', the events of the "legends of old" had to have something new that happened after Ganon was sealed, something the Hero of Time should had done which would seize his existence in that timeline -- thus preventing the results of the Adult Timeline from happening to his childhood's fate. The Hero of Time's descendant/reincarnation did so in his ancestor's place, "sealing Ganon into darkness and split the Triforce into three" before ''A Link Between Worlds''. |
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| − | ::::I sense you are assuming too much about the back story of ALBW that isn't actually told to us, and I'm not entirely sure what you are arguing exactly, sorry. But, it's best not to assume that anything happens if they don't state it happening, that's the general rule, because then we go into realms of fanfiction. Okay, for future reference, here is the entire prologue. |
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| − | ::::*''There is a legend oft told in Hyrule Kingdom. It is the legend of the Triforce, once kept in Hyrule itself. Said to be a gift of the gods, the Triforce could grant a wish of all those who touched it. So of course, many wanted to get their hands on it. Wars were fought for the Triforce.'' |
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| − | ::::*''The royal family summoned the Seven Sages, who sealed the Triforce in the Sacred Realm.'' |
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| − | ::::*''But a thief of notorious repute broke into the Sacred Realm and claimed the Triforce. With its power, he became the Demon King Ganon, who sought to dominate all Hyrule. But just as Ganon had the kingdom in his evil clutches... a legendary hero answered the call of Hyrule's princess. And this hero, wielding the Master Sword, took up a quest to challenge Ganon's might. He joined with the descendants of the Seven Sages to seal the Demon King in darkness.'' |
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| − | ::::*''The Triforce was divided into three-its tempting power out of any one person's reach. One part stayed with the royal family, while another slipped into Ganon's possession. Legends say the third part found its home in the heart of the hero eternal... And while legends come to us from the distant past, others have yet to be written...'' |
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| − | ::::And now, to compare, this is the story given in the paintings, which is actually slightly different. |
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| − | ::::*'''Painting I: The Golden Triforce''' |
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| − | ::::''This gift from the gods, Hyrule's greatest treasure, will grant the wish of any mortal who touches it. The Triforce once stoked greed in the hearts of men. A legendary war was fought to keep it out of evil hands.'' |
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| − | ::::*'''Painting II: The Sealed Triforce''' |
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| − | ::::''To end the war for the Triforce, the royal family decided to hide it in the Sacred Realm. They summoned the Seven Sages of legend, who used their power to seal the Triforce away.'' |
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| − | ::::*'''Painting III: The Demon King''' |
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| − | ::::''The Demon King Ganon was once just a thief-until the man broke into the Sacred Realm. There he stole the Triforce and transformed himself. He then took his evil campaign back to Hyrule.'' |
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| − | ::::*'''Painting IV: The Hero Awakens''' |
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| − | ::::''A hero of legend arose from humble beginnings, awoken to his purpose by a princess of Hyrule. With the Master Sword, the blade of evil's bane, he sought the descendants of the Seven Sages. Together they defeated the Demon King Ganon-and sealed him away in darkness.'' |
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| − | ::::*'''Painting V: The Triforce, Split Apart''' |
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| − | ::::''The Triforce was split into three pieces, separated forever. One piece remains with the royal family. Another piece has fallen into the hands of Ganon, sealed away with him. The third piece of the Triforce has vanished, though legend says it is hidden in the spirit of a true hero.'' |
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| − | ::::Finally, this is the introduction of A Link to the Past (GBA version). |
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| − | ::::*''Long ago, in Hyrule, a beautiful kingdom surrounded by forests and mountains... legends told of an omnipotent and omniscient Golden Power that lay hidden. It was hidden in a sacred realm beyond the reach of men, but one day...'' |
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| − | ::::''...a doorway to that realm was suddenly opened...'' |
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| − | ::::*''Hoping to claim the Golden Power as their own, the people began to quarrel and fight... Many sought to enter the hidden Golden Land... But none returned, and instead evil power began to issue forth from the dark portal...'' |
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| − | ::::*''So the king commanded seven sages to seal the gate to the land of the Golden Power. Many brave knights were lost in the battle to protect the sages from the tides of evil, but the seal was cast! Evil flowed no more! And the seal would remain for all time... Or so the people hoped...'' |
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| − | ::::As you can see, the first two paintings pretty much retell the story of the Imprisoning War as described in ALttP (although, it's possible to argue it might refer to the events where Rauru sealed the Triforce). Now, you might say that the third painting therefore contradicts this, as it is said Ganon then invades the Sacred Realm as this is wrong, because he had already invaded it prior to the Imprisoning War, HOWEVER, most people in Hyrule did not actually KNOW this. During the Imprisoning War, they fight against evil issuing forth from the Sacred Realm and nobody knows the source of it. For the first half of A Link to the Past, Ganon is not even mentioned. Therefore, the information about Ganon getting the Triforce is included separately as a prologue to the actual events of the game, but it doesn't mean it happened in that exact order. After all, this is just a legend. Aside from that, there are no contradictions. |
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| − | ::::Also, it NEVER says that the descendants of the Sages actually sealed Ganon, just that they helped Link seal him. The maidens did indeed help Link in A Link to the Past, by breaking the barrier on Ganon's Tower, and their power was with him the whole time. The "seal" into darkness was just Ganon's defeat, there is no indication of a separate sealing event. |
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| − | ::::Finally, no reason is given for the Triforce being split, but it's hinted that it was done to stop another war over it's power as it says "its tempting power out of any one person's reach". {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 15:11, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Yes. That's the reason I was talking about. "''The Triforce was divided into three-its tempting power out of any one person's reach.''" Hidden within the Spirit of the Chosen Hero, remained with the descendants of Hylia, sealed with Demise's incarnation of darkness, there's absolutely no way to reach the three Triforce. |
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| − | :Well, just to say, I know the Creation of the World, the Imprisoning War and the Great Cataclysm. It's just the third part where Ganon's conflict start didn't felt like ''A Link to the Past'' but a follow-up to the Great Cataclysm's era that was quite similar to ''Ocarina of Time'', the Great Flood and the events of ''A Link to the Past''. It would be easier if it was after the ending of ''Link's Awakening'' if Link returns to Hyrule. But it doesn't matter. The legends combine the elements of those games, then ''Oracle'' and ''Link's Awakening''. It may be before, meanwhile or after ''Link's Awakening'' -- The split of the Triforce, that is. But as long as the split was after the Great Cataclysm, it's okay... |
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| − | :Okay, let's say Ganon's death was the seal (but there's no way because the Master Sword kills him on multiple occasions). Mindless Ganon dies and his soul was dragged into darkness automatically after ''Oracle''. But the game itself indicates that the Sages sealed Ganon into darkness so it could be broken by using their power to reverse what they did, which is what Yuga did. So how the Master Sword seals Ganon, despite it kills him so many times? Maybe they felt the soul was going to revive so they sealed his soul so he could remain weak to do so. It's just a speculation...--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 18:47, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I think fitting in the entirety of the prologue story of ALBW AFTER Link's Awakening would be nigh impossible, because it would require Ganon to go back to being Ganondorf and discover the Triforce all over again. It's just far too similar to events that have already happened, almost word-for-word in some instances. I think it's fairly clear it is intended to refer to the same events. I believe there's a quote somewhere from Nintendo saying that the game reveals more about the Imprisoning War, too. |
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| − | ::The Triforce cannot be split until after the Oracle games, because it is whole and in Hyrule Castle during the Oracle games. |
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| − | ::As for Ganon's seal, it's all speculation, so lets wait until we get the Japanese version of the game, perhaps it'll shed more light on it. For now, we just have to assume he was sealed rather than destroyed when he was defeated, or that destroying him "sealed him in darkness" (meaning the underworld, or hell). Or perhaps it's simply a retcon. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 19:19, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | Well, I guess that's enough... This discussion has gotten too big. Thankfully, you improved ''A Link Between Worlds'' section in the timeline. Thanks, I was too lazy to write. Let's say it's okay now the way things are, okay? :/--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 04:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == "History of the Zelda Timeline" == |
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| − | I think this section really either needs removing entirely or needs some serious work done. Almost nothing is sourced and it reads like a strange editorial rather than an impartial account of events. Very tempted to take a huge axe to it, unless someone can rework it. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 16:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == Timeline Terminology == |
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| − | I was thinking perhaps we should adjust the names used for the timelines to match those in this, posted by NoA on their facebook page... http://www.buzzfeed.com/legendofzelda/the-legend-of-zelda-a-timeline |
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| − | These are also the exact names used for Gametrailer's rather impressive Timeline episode. http://www.gametrailers.com/full-episodes/en597n/timeline-the-legend-of-zelda |
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| − | For reference, this would be "Fallen Hero Timeline", "Child Link Timeline" and "Adult Link Timeline". I personally think this is better than "downfall" or "decline" as it doesn't imply that the timeline is "lesser" and focuses on the status of Link, as the other names already do. The other name used is "Singular Timeline" I think, for the pre-Ocarina stuff. |
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| − | Basically, this is the closest I've been able to find as "official" names for each branch, as they are not named in Hyrule Historia. While not perfect, at the very least they seem to have become the most well known names outside of this wiki. If everyone is okay with this, I'll adjust the terminology accordingly. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 16:08, 14 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | :Technically, we can't be certain that Link was killed. Maybe he was merely knocked unconscious as in TWW? Sure, he was likely killed but HH says that he was "defeated". "Defeated Hero timeline" perhaps? [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] ([[User talk:Zeldafan1982|talk]]) 17:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Fallen doesn't imply killed either, it just means he fell in battle. Often used to denote death, yes, but not necessarily. A "fall" can simply mean failure or defeat. I think it's suitably vague as it implies either option. My main reasoning for this is that this is the closest thing to an "official" source and also seems to be the most popular terminology. Plus I've never liked "downfall" or "decline" as both imply that Hyrule fell into ruin, but it only really did this after the Golden Age, which is also part of the timeline. {{:User:Fizzle/sig}} 23:02, 17 December 2013 (UTC) |
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| − | == If Hyrule Warriors was cannon. == |
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| − | I speculate that if Hyrule Warriors was to be inserted, it would be on the Child Timeline, specifically after Twilight Princess or Four Swords Adventures. Why? Because of the portals to the past. And since they only go through time, not space, it could only be on the same timeline as Twilight Princess. The portals lead to the past, not the future, so it has to be after Twilight Princess. I am still unsure whether HW takes place before FSA or after it. Any other speculation? [[User:Coolconnor995|Coolconnor995]] ([[User talk:Coolconnor995|talk]]) 03:27, 16 October 2014 (UTC) |
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| − | :HW was stablished as non-canon. You can check the complete discussion in the [[Talk:Hyrule Warriors#Canon|HW Talk Page]]. Or if you want to discuss any theory regarding the game or the timeline, you can always check the [http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/ Zelda Universe forums]. [[User:Chuck|Chuck]] ([[User talk:Chuck|talk]]) 03:47, 16 October 2014 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 06:22, 2 November 2015
| File information | |
|---|---|
| Summary | Artwork of the Links standing on a Triforce Gateway |
| Type | Artwork |
| Source | Famitsu |
| Game |  This is a file pertaining to Tri Force Heroes.
|
| Licensing | 
|