Forums: Index Watercooler 2 LoZ Map Issues

There are 2 issues here (potentially with one solution), both pertaining to our maps for dungeons from the original NES Zelda:

First off, a number of our maps have inaccuracies. I've not done a point by point survey but I know of a number of examples of the maps with Link shown in the doorways having errors (example, see this talk page for details), ranging from keys that are not shown to rooms that are shown as containing something entirely different than what they do in the game. I think the Link-in-doorway maps are all suspect (I can sift through for more errors in need be) and we should replace the lot of them if we have a more reliable source.

Second, we apparently have a number of maps taken from this site, just with the credits and whatnot taken out (example: compare our Level 9 2nd quest with his Level 9 2nd quest). I can tell they're the same from the identical; placement of the enemies, labels, arrows indicating pass through walls (which is a custom made image, not something two independent people would likely make exactly the same), etc.. Thing is the guy wants you to ask him in e-mail before using any of his maps on your site, and wants you to leave the credits/website/copyright left on (I'm not sure that you actually can copyright maps created from Nintendo's property, but w/e). So yeah. If any of the people who uploaded one of those have in fact contacted the guy or got the map from somewhere else, please let us know.

Things is though, the maps that guy made are excellent; I've used them extensively and they've never let me down before. They also include all the details you could ever want. If we e-mailed the guy and got his permission to use his maps, we could just use those for all the LoZ dungeons and we wouldn't have any problems with the inaccuracies in the Link-in-doorway ones. However, I don't know if ZP would be willing to use maps with the credits and whatnot still on them, or if he'd be willing to let us take them off (again that's if we haven't asked already). If we decide we want to contact this guy, I'd be happy to do it myself if it would move things along, but really it'd be better if a b-crat did it.--FierceDeku 06:22, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I read through the logs this morning because I saw that I was pinged. And I just want to let you know that the only thing I did involving maps, was take the ones from ZP, and remove the background. I don't let myself find images from games I haven't played, since, I haven't played them and I wouldn't know if they were right or wrong. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding with the maps, but at the point when I had removed the backgrounds, I was going through the file lists and finding images with backgrounds and then removing them, and at that point in time, I thought that the original levels in the original game were still called dungeons, since it was back in my n00b days. I'm really sorry for causing any problems and I just really don't want the site (here and that other site) to think that I copied images. And I can assure you guys, that I would never take images with watermarks/copyright info, since I don't want people doing the same with images that I've taken (>.< kinda a bad comparison, going from VG images to real life images). And I wouldn't be able to get images from the original game because I wouldn't know if they were correct or not. The only true image I'd be able to find of the original game, is from the part where you get the sword, up to about three screens to the left. Once again, sorry if this causes any misunderstandings, I just don't want this on my slate, especially since I only removed the backgrounds of the ones already on ZP, and I can understand how it could seem like I did copy them. But once again, I can assure you that I didn't. --BassJapas 17:42, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it was me that got those maps. It was quite a while ago though I can't quite remember if I asked permission it's a 50 50 chance on that one. Regardless they are copyrighted to Nintendo but still it'd be better to have them with permission then without. I honestly can't remember if I did ask for permission or not though. Oni Dark Link 21:21, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I fail to see the improvement of those maps over ours. Including maps with legends and items and suches doesn't seem very encyclopedic neither; we aren't a walkthrough site. --AuronKaizer! 23:05, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think I understand what you mean AK. Maybe this is just me, but it seems like it would be very much encyclopedic to have maps that show what/where everything is. That means we have more information. We want to be all inclusive and as useful as possible, right? Also, his maps are better than some of our other ones not only due to greater detail, but because some of our other ones lie.--FierceDeku 00:14, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

I've emailed the website man, and he's currently out of state visiting a friend, so once he gets back, in a week or two, he said he'll shrink them down to 25%, and let us use them. If they aren't insanely tiny and are a decent size when they are shrunk, then it seems like this will be a good alternative. --Jäzzi(Talk) 14:11, May 15, 2011 (UTC)

I just read all of this forum now, seeing as I haven't before, and this seems like a good alternative as you said (that is, if it works). -Minish Link 14:49, May 15, 2011 (UTC)
Hmm, did he say why he was going to shrink them? They're 1 to 1 sized pixel for pixel images, so they'd probably look really crummy shrunken (25% of the original pixels will just vanish and splush straight into the next row/column of pixels). I'm curious if non-shrunken images might be negotiable. Are these credit free versions or does he expect his name/website/etc. to still appear on them? Considering most people would just rip them off his site without a second thought and he'd never know, I'm a little annoyed he's giving us beef when we're being nice about it. I'd be bloody thrilled to have a major site like ZP come to me out of the blue and ask for my work. Maybe that's just me though. In all fairness though I really have no details about the discussion or the tone of his message so w/e.
Depending on the situation I'd personally consider making a donation to his site in exchange for ZP having the right to use the full sized versions. I've used his maps a lot anyway. Such an exchange might potentially raise legal issues so idk, but I'd probably do it.--FierceDeku 03:14, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

He's not giving us "beef". The email between us is shown here. They're credit free versions. And the reason for the shrinkage is the effort put into the maps, because you'd have to be blind to not see the effort. You shouldn't be annoyed, seeing how you were the one who brought this discussion up, and wanted it solved. And the full size image of this is pretty large, and shrunken to 25% it's 384x264, I'll ask him if we can possibly have it shrunken down to 50% for gallery purposes. And perhaps we can think about doing references for the maps? --Jäzzi(Talk) 03:28, May 16, 2011 (UTC)

First off, I'm sorry for being snippy about the deal. I don't want to be unappreciative of the person who made these maps, but at the first what we were being offered sounded not even worth using and I wasn't even aware that was a credit free offer. I wasn't in a great mood to begin with so I overreacted and got unappreciative. I could make excuses all day (I had started writing some) but really I was just screwing up. I'm sorry. Thank you for contacting him, and for pushing all these dead topics back into the light.
Hmm. If we put up background only versions, to be honest, we'd lose a lot more content than we'd gain. We wouldn't have the scattered inaccuracies of the other maps, but we'd be omitting an awful lot. It might just be better to scope out the problems with the other maps and fix them ourselves, as it's usually just a single room in a map. I really don't think 25% sized maps would be worth putting him through the effort of resizing them and sending them to us. I'm iffy about using anything smaller than regular size, and if it's also background only I'd say thanks but don't bother.
If we get anything from him I'd highly recommend including credits. I mean, inset image boxes on the wiki list the user who uploaded them right there on the page (that's probably cause we can't turn those off but still). These maps took a whole lot more effort than any single image would, so I think it's only fair to leave all his credits in. He also might give us something un-shrunken if we leave them in. If we do end up getting something shrunken from him (though I wouldn't recommend it especially at 25%), I can do it myself, he doesn't have to bother with it. His images are on the public internet, all he has to do is tell us the % size and I (or anyone else who volunteers) can just shrink it, and then he can look over them when we link him to the end result. My main recommendation though would be just let the credits stay and see what he'll give us then.--FierceDeku 05:52, May 16, 2011 (UTC)
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