Talk:Link

Relationships
Not that it really matters, but I just noticed Link doesn't have a relationships section. Not just romantic or potentially so, but like family and people who raised him. Is there a reason for this? Zelda's page has one, so I was just wondering. I mean, right now if I want to find out that info I have to do a lot of searching and reading. But it's not a big issue either way.Xelestial (talk) 17:30, December 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * The relationship section would contain so many sub-sections it would be overkill. – Jazzi   talk  18:18, December 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, makes sense. Xelestial (talk) 18:19, December 13, 2012 (UTC)

Link's Age
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Link's adult age in Ocarina of Time 19 not 17? According to Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Link is 12, it says so in his trophy description:

"Link as he appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass, with big eyes and an expressive face. He lived peacefully on Outset Island until a bird captured his little sister, and he came to her rescue. In The Wind Waker, he had to crawl, press up to walls, and the like. His green clothes were worn on his 12th birthday and are the lucky outfit of the hero of legend."

His Grandma says "Today is a day to celebrate! It is the day that you become the same age as the young hero spoken of in all the legends."

Then young Link fell asleep for 7 years so surely adult Link should be 19 not 17. Then again, I might just be over thinking this.

What's going on?
Admins, take heed. Someone seem to have hijacked your site... starting with this page! --Starlight Keyblade (talk) 20:12, October 7, 2013 (UTC)

Image
This has always been the subject of infobox image changing... I forget, did we ever set some real ground rules about exactly what picture to use, and how to do so without bias? Well, anyway, maybe as a solution this thing from that dreaded thing about the thing could be used. It may become quickly outdated and everything, but it's better than nothing. Besides which, we have some MSPaint geniuses about who might be able to do a terrib--err, terrific job of it. Anyway, speak. -- Auron  Kaizer !  23:27, November 29, 2013 (UTC)

Propose subpages for distinctive Links
Particularly in the case of a Link who we know has existed as the same person in multiple games, like with Ocarina-Majora for example. A central difficulty is what to name them. Naming them after shorthand of the games they appear in, in the chronological order in-universe the games happen in, would work for me.

The ones who appear in multiple games are most important as this lessens the amount of Links to keep track of, and we can tally the solo-game ones at the end. Tracking the timelines and stuff on this basis would give an impression of how many have lived. --talk2ty 18:01, October 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Making distinction between the Links are also difficult. Evidence elans both ways for the Oracle Link being the same as ALTTP/LA. Some don't think ALTTP is the LA Link at all. Nothing confirms the Four Swords Adventures Link actually is the Four Swords Link. There's also Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur Links who take the appearance from one game but uses traits from other games. Overall it's an unconfirmed, opinionated mess that provides nothing that can't be detailed on this page. The only Link's I think we could make a page for are the ones who aren't playable in games like the original Hero of Time or Hylia's Hero from Skyward Sword (who even had a short manga if I remember correctly). Oni Dark Link 18:25, October 15, 2014 (UTC)

There will definitely be a lot of tough areas where we will be unsure about who is who. I propose we come up with a naming system where by default we assume a separate Link for every single game. Obviously there is a lot of evidence to suggest the Link of 2 or more games is the same one in which case we have a second step where we come up with a system for a consolidated name. I would primarily defer to unique titles he has been given within the games themselves as the default, and then go by some kind of standardized system otherwise.

Time Hero for Ocarina/Majora, Twilight Hero for TwiPrincess, Wind Hero for Windwaker, would be some good starting points. It gets confusing after that when games lack as distinctive a theme, but it's better than just a single-page jumble. talk2ty 19:13, November 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is really nothing to be gained by making multiple Link pages and a whole lot of trouble trying to correct and format them to gain said nothing. Aside from the historic Link's mentioned above, the only other Link's I could see getting pages would be the outside Zelda game Links, namely the smash Bros. Sould Calibur and Hyrule Warrior games since they have such a vastly different gameplay style and would be a good place to list equipment and combos that wouldn't naturally fit on this page. Oni Dark Link 19:18, November 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, what Oni Dark Link said. — Shiram Ludgerus  ээ  Fi_(Hyrule_Warriors).png 01:55, November 10, 2014 (UTC)



Gender
Out of curiosity, would we be able to make an article or at least a forum thread for exploring within each game what references exist to the gender of link? I mean, I know we all assume he's a male and stuff, but I mean more in the terms of direct evidence. Like who (and where, and when) might refer to Link as 'he' or 'him' or any other pronouns or other terms which declare a specific gender for the hero.

Like for example, are there games where we can rule out by such references (1 or more) the possibility of Link being a strong masculine-seeming girl, and other games where we can not rule out the possiblity? It's not like Link has ever had stereotypical indicators like a moustache or beard, so I thought that could be an interesting project.

Since there clearly seems to be multiple Links in the franchise (see above section) a conclusion (or lackthereof) drawn in one game would not necessarily mean anything for those in others. I haven't memorized the particulars of NPC dialogue so I would have to keep an eye out for this type of stuff during a replay (does anyone have transcripts we can check perhaps?).

I expect one strong candidate for affirmed-masculinity would be Windwaker due to having a sibling, perhaps at some point Link was referred to as a 'brother' in it? talk2ty 19:13, November 9, 2014 (UTC)

Link's incarnations
Please excuse me for asking this, but where does it state (aside from Wind Waker) that each Link is a reincarnation of each other? If your talking about how reincarnation is a thing in the franchise, then I agree, but that doesn't exactly mean every Link is a reincarnation of each other. As for descendants, I meant as a direct kind of relationship such as how the Hero of Time seems to be a direct ancestor to Twilight Princess Link, you know? Ether way, it's still a theory so I'm not sure how to go any further than that.--Zakitaro (talk) 22:29, April 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure TWW is the only game that mentions the possibility of Link being reincarnated, though the King of Red Lions insists that game's Link "has no connection to the ancient one." Unless there's a developer quote about this topic, I'm pretty sure the idea that the same Link is continuously reincarnated in every game is just a widely-accepted theory. Jedimasterlink (talk) 08:05, April 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well to be precise, the King of Red Lions said that Wind Waker Link seems to have no connection to the Hero of Time himself. But since the King of Red Lions didn't seem to exactly be "bright" (seriously, he leaves Tetra in some unknown dungeon and then wishes on the Triforce for his own Kingdom to be swept away instead of wishing for something like Ganon's defeat), he could have been wrong. I did kinda write why the Reincarnation theory is wrong, but the relative theory is pretty valid isn't it? Anyways, since what I wrote is currently a valid theory (especially the relatives one) may I bring it back to Link's page?--Zakitaro (talk) 09:47, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

It's not just the King of Red Lions. Ganondorf also refers to Link as the Hero of Time Reborn. Likewise Zelda is Hylia reborn meaning reincarnation, at least for the divine is a factor of the universe. Likewise there are a lot of comments about Hylia's Chosen Hero both in the time past and in the present day that seems to infer they are one and the same despite being two people born at two different times. Faron also says Link's power is that of the hero that came before him when he is get's the Hero's Clothes and tha they are both chosen by the gods. I believe reincarnation is the clear intent of the developers and that the Spirit of the Hero that Demise curses is the spirit of Link hat is continually reborn. True one might say it's not really reincarnation and more a power or force but in reality the description of reincarnation doesn't follow the primary beliefs of Hindus of Buddhists of our world whose goal is actually to escape the cycle. The important thing is that some aspect of Link is continually manifests itself in people with similar physical characteristics whenever the world is in danger. I think that's something pretty clear and referenced to several times in the series and therefore is more than just a theory. Oni Dark Link 11:00, April 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * The King of Red Lions didn't really say Link from Wind Waker was the Hero of Time reborn. On the other hand, I think Ganon merely said that because he lost the battle against him. Are you also forgetting how the Hero of Time went to the Child Timeline and became the Hero's Shade? That kinda hints Wind Waker Link isn't a reincarnation of the Hero of Time. Besides, Link from Twilight Princess can't be the reincarnation of the Hero of Time since he not only is the direct descendant of the Hero of Time, but also met his ghost. I think by the Spirit of the Hero, Demise was actually referring to a form of will rather than Link's actual soul. As for Hylia, it seemed she decided to be reincarnated so she can stop Demise, she probably didn't do it because that's how nature works. So I'm not sure reincarnation is solid, you know? In fact, when Demise said "Those who share the blood of the goddess" he may have been referring to Link and Zelda's descendants who might be the other Links. In the Japanese text, Demise stated that his hatred will go under an "evolution", which may mean the curse could involve other villains apart from Ganon (such as Majora or Nightmare) which would further prove my theory since Zelda didn't really do much (if at all) to stop these foes. Anyways, this is still a theory so I'm not sure why you erased it. It is a valid theory isn't it?--Zakitaro (talk) 11:26, April 13, 2015 (UTC)

I believe I explained myself pretty accurately in my previous post. I don't see how I can make in any clearer but I'll give it a go. Demise explicitly refers to he Spirit of The Hero. It is something he curses, something that will continue to exist after Link dies and something on which the curse will continually act. This is a fact. It's something concrete in game. Now the exact nature of this Spirit of the Hero isn't detailed in full but we can gather it is what makes Link worth cursing. His essence as a warrior and protector. Something that will make he person stand in the way of those like Demise. What is clear is that there is something that preserves after death and gives power Link the power to be Link. It is referred to by Demise, Ganondorf, the King of Red Lions and Faron to name those I can think of off the top of my head. I don't think this warrants a a theory section because I believe it is a concrete part of the series and has been at least since The Wind Waker if not earlier and has definitely become something clear and definite since Skyward Sword. In fact I'd argue we make a page for the Spirit of The Hero where it's exact nature, exceptions and manifestations can be analyzed. Referring to it as Reincarnation is probably a misnomer as Link is not moving up a series of castes to reach Nirvana (like Hindu reincarnation) nor is he trying to become one with Nonexistence (like the Buddhist concept of rebirth), unless you're trying to say Link is on a spiritual journey to leave Hyrule to move to a higher plain of existence there is no theory to speak of. Oni Dark Link 15:19, April 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not exactly sure where you get these ideas from, but I suppose I should give it a shot and try to write something against it. First of all, the Japanese text stated that Demise said "You people who possess the spirit of the Hero and blood of the goddess" which presumably refers to people like Link. Even the English text stated "Those like you" which further hints my theory. It actually seems like he cursed Link's descendants (Kind of like how Ganon cursed Link and Zelda as well as their descendants in the Ocarina of Time, in his words). Also, again Link from Wind Waker probably can't be spiritually connected with the Hero of Time since the Hero of Time not only went to the Child Timeline, but became the Hero's Shade. This also extends to Twilight Princess Link since (as I previously wrote above) he is the descendant of the Hero of Time as well as met his ghost. What your stating doesn't really have any solid proof (seriously, when were Buddhists or Hindu a thing in Legend of Zelda?), in fact, it kinda sounds like a theory. As for what Faron said, it still sounds like a will thing (or the Triforce of Courage) in my opinion. I'm not entirely sure what dialogue the King of Red Lions said which further convinces you about this whole "reincarnation theory", but it's probably not too convincing of words. Please forgive me if I have offended you an anyway.--Zakitaro (talk) 04:13, April 14, 2015 (UTC)

We're going around in circles here. I bring up Buddhism and Hinduism to specifically say Link is not in a cycle of reincarnation as it is traditionally understood, but that something is being passed on each time. This something whether you call it a spirit, a force or a will is something that is a clear and intentional part of the canon that is not a theory. Demise even gives us a clear name for it. It is something that definitely exists even if its nature, limitations and exceptions are unknown to us. Oni Dark Link 10:01, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure what to say here. I already gave out my arguments for this "spirit thing" you seem so convinced about. What Demise said was (in the Japanese version) that Link is a powerful human (Hylian) whom he praises for defeating him and then gleefully tells him that his hatred and the Demon Tribe's curse will keep reincarnating to curse Link's people who possesses the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the Hero. He doesn't specify about this "spirit of the Hero" thing. I already stated my reasons for why reincarnation probably isn't the thing for each of Link's incarnations as well as stated the reasons for why the relative theory (close relatives) is a possible theory.--Zakitaro (talk) 10:31, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * So I'm completely lost now. From what I can tell, Oni seems to have shifted his stance from "Link is reincarnated" to "Link isn't reincarnated, but each Link shares the same spirit/force/thing whose nature is basically unknown to us," while Zakitaro denies both Link's reincarnation and the "spirit of the Hero" argument while using a quote that specifically mentions this spirit in his claims against it. I just don't know what I can add to clear this up for you guys. Some of the time you seem to have the same basic position, and other times...not. Jedimasterlink (talk) 17:14, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * If we were to simplify things greatly then I would still say yes, it is canon that Link is reincarnated. It's just on further exploration of this fact do I feel the need to call it something different since it isn't strictly reincarnation and never referred to as such. Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 17:39, April 14, 2015 (UTC)
 * I would say that each incarnation of Link is related to one another (in theory), but I still wrote the reincarnation theory because it's a rather known theory. I did on the other hand though, also wrote how that would conflict with the other elements of the game (such as the timeline and the Hero's Shade) as well as wrote why I think it's possible that each incarnation of Link are related to one another in a family sort of way. As for the "Spirit of the Hero" thing, I'm trying to say that it's probably a will sort of thing rather than spirit itself that Demise said as he supposedly cursed Link and Zelda's descendants.--Zakitaro (talk) 05:59, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

For the purpose of what I'm trying to argue it doesn't mater what the Spirit of the Hero is, only that it makes Link, Link can is cursed so he will have to fight Demise's incarnation. But why do you assume it's a will sort of thing rather than a spirit when it is literally called the Spirit of the Hero. They just as easily could have called it the Will of the Hero if they wanted. It seems as if your baselessly twisting a quote to support our idea as a theory even though it makes no difference. <font color="#66FFFF">Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 09:07, April 15, 2015 (UTC)
 * I already wrote that this is a theory with other events throughout the games that back this up. I also wrote down a number of reason why the reincarnation theory would be wrong, and yet why do you keep insisting it's a solid fact in Legend of Zelda when there isn't much evidence to back it up? --Zakitaro (talk) 09:22, April 15, 2015 (UTC)

I do still have issues with adding this as a theory. At least with the way the current argument stands. All Zakitaro has done is discredit the very explicit words of Demise which he then uses for the theory itself. To reduce things to it's most simplistic forms, I see of no reason why we should assume any of the characters who mention reincarnation are wrong or mean something else. By the same logic I could discredt Link being male by claiming everyone who calls him a young man or boy is referring to profession and no his gender. I'm fine letting the theory stay if it's the majority consensus, but not if the current logic is being used. Either way I also think the Spirit of the Hero should get it's own page since even if we outright refute reincarnation, it's still something important as the criteria for Demise's curse. <font color="#66FFFF">Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 09:33, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * How many times do I have to note that the Hero of Time can't be the past life of Link from Wind Waker and Twilight Princess due to him going to the Child Timeline and becoming the Hero's Shade as well as the fact that he is the ancestor of Link from Twilight Princess whom he meets in person? You wrote down that all I did is discredit Demise's words, yet you don't seem to have read my entire sentences. I'm not sure what this "Spirit of the Hero" thing is exactly, but I do know that it probably is not Link's literal soul. I keep writing down that this is a theory, not confirmed information which is why I wrote down my theory for the "Spirit of the Hero" stuff and Link's incarnations which I used other information to back up with. I'm sorry if this has offended you in any way.--Zakitaro (talk) 09:59, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Also again, reincarnation is not explicitly mentioned by anyone other than Ganondorf in TWW. All the other references you mentioned are to some sort of heroic lineage, which is equally plausible as both direct descension and reincarnation (except King of Red Lions, who advocates against one or both of these, not for them). The "spirit of the Hero", to my mind, is equally plausible as either Link's literal soul or the core traits of his character, and its mentioning only supports that a relation of some sort exists between each Link, whether physical, metaphysical, or otherwise. The next Zelda game will totally be called A Link Between Links. Jedimasterlink (talk) 10:13, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * I still don't think the "Spirit of the hero" is about Link's literal soul since the Hero of Time appeared as a ghost to his descendant who is the Link from Twilight Princess so there's that.--Zakitaro (talk) 10:38, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Why would conversing one's past incarnation be impossible? Have you ever seen anything from the Avatar franchise? They do it all the time there. In at least one Shin Megami Tensei game you need to fight an (evil) past version of yourself. And of course time travel would mess a lot of things up but can you say for certain that it would not replicate the reincarnation cycle? We have to accept there are things we simply don't know about the nature of the series, but not knowing something does not make what we do know irrelevant. If you want to strictly define reincarnation as something else that is a theory then that's fine, but I don't think making a reincarnation theory should override the fact that we do know there is something (referred to as a Spirit) that is shared by all if not most Links that gives them strength and helps to shape who they are. <font color="#66FFFF">Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 10:43, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * If we're going to being Avatar into this, then technically, each Avatar has their own distinct soul -- their spirits are bound together, in a fashion, by their connection to Raava. In order for this comparison to work, the "spirit of the Hero" would have to be a similar sort of binding agent, a separate entity from the other Links which grants several distinct individuals across time shared abilities and characteristics. I suppose that's plausible for the Zelda series, but it's also really grasping at straws until A Link Between Links confirms it. (And assuming the SMT game you refer to is IV, that's enabled by time-travel/mulitiverse shenanigans coming into play.) Jedimasterlink (talk) 11:00, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Actually I was talking about Digital Devil Saga. Which is a weird case as it involves artificially making a reincarnated being using AIs which can attain physical form. The game makes it clear it uses the same "data" as the original being which is helpful since the physical world can be quantified with data. It's also considered true reincarnation in the literal Hindu sense since Nirvana is a confirmed state of existence. Though I am playing Shin Megami Tensei IV now so no spoilers please, I'm looking forward to getting into the game proper. Also while I'm here I feel like pointing out the Hero's Shade as a problem in it's entirety is a moot point as it in itself is a theory confirmed by a source outside of the game. <font color="#66FFFF">Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 11:05, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about what you said since it's something else that's unrelated to this, but I if it's a literal soul, then I'd say it's not likely (along with the fact that the Adult Timeline is a parallel world of the Child Timeline minus Link from Ocarina of Time himself rather than a different time itself). Exactly what do you mean the Hero's Shade theory was confirmed by an outside source? It was confirmed by Nintendo itself (along with it being hinted rather heavily in the game through dialogue). And you stated that we "We have to accept there are things we simply don't know about the nature of the series" and yet you write your theories about the "Spirit of the Hero" like it's a fact. Exactly at what point does Demise state that the "Spirit of the Hero" gives the Link's great strength or helps shape their character? Please forgive me if what I'm writing seems harsh. --Zakitaro (talk) 11:09, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, luckily, the SMT4 spoiler I accidentally gave isn't entirely accurate since I was trying to match what you said to one of the ones I've played (if I could just find a DDS copy at a decent price...). At any rate, while I'm enjoying this discussion, I feel like we're going to keep talking in circles for a long time if we try to keep this up, so I'm going to back out of it. Jedimasterlink (talk) 11:15, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

Faron was the one who confirmed it gave him strength.

As for shaping them as a person, aside from the obvious similarities between Links, Ganondorf in The Wind Waker refers to Link directly as being like the Hero of Time right before calling him the Hero of Time reborn. For what it's worth the narrative text itself also refers to the Master Sword as the sword of the One True Hero. Also it's cool for you to bow out Jedi but I'd appreciate it if you kept an eye on things and as a third party, come to some kind of conclusion if you've been swayed on way or another. (also copies of Digital Devil Saga tend to go for less than €20. I've been considering geyting a copy since I've only placed the second installment of the two part game). <font color="#66FFFF">Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 11:24, April 17, 2015 (UTC)

I assume the power Faron spoke of was about the Triforce of Courage (which I already noted above) rather than spirit itself. Pretty sure Ganon was just amazed that he lost to someone that looks similar to another person who also defeated him. Would also like to note that since this theory thing is seemingly accepted, there doesn't seem be much point continuing this talk. Why don't we also end this talk for now?--Zakitaro (talk) 11:30, April 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * I confess Faron could be talking about the Triforce of Courage and that he could not, which is theory territory. However, Ganondorf says he was specifically waiting for Link to appear which means he wasn't surprised to encounter him. And I just keep coming back to Demise's words which literally says spirit. Even checking a translation of the Japanese script he still says soul (which is even more explicit than spirit). For one to interpret this for anything other than what is said involved ignoring the words, especially since, in either version, if they wanted it to refer to as a will then they could have used the word Will or Heart and the sentence would make the exact same amount of sense. It's no wonder we argue about the nature of the soul, it's something humans have debated about for thousands of years. But it's exact workings cannot disconfirm it's existence merely because it doesn't behave the way you personally would expect it to. Therefore the Hero's Shade or the Split Timeline cannot be used as evidence to the contrary. If you can in some way definitely prove that Demise means something other than exactly what he says then I will gladly back down and end this conversation (though I will still campaign for a Spirit of the Hero page where it's nature, or even existence, can be more appropriately examined). <font color="#66FFFF">Oni <font color="#7F007F">Dark <font color="#007A00">Link 12:33, April 17, 2015 (UTC)