User talk:Fused Shadow/Archive 2

Imprisoning War
There is greater evidence that it was rebuilt, b/c if you will notice, when Link fights the Skull Kid in TP, he is standing in the remains of what appears to have been a city, and on the other side of the tunnel the Skull Kid opens is the Temple of Time. That is exactly how it appeared in OOT, with Hyrule Castle Town laid out in a square with the Temple of Time on the other side of a walkway. Also, the maps of Hyrule in TP and OOT suggest that the castle and the town were rebuilt elsewhere, since it appears off-center in OOT and in the center of Hyrule in TP. The evidence is greater that the town and castle were rebuilt elsewhere. Hero of Time 87 21:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

If I may comment, I'd only say that if Castle Town was rebuilt, then why does Death Mountain stay about the same distance away from Castle Town? That can't be rebuilt. M. H. Avril 21:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes it can, if the castle was merely centered in Hyrule Field, of course it would be the same distance. That's how a circle is. If you take the time to examine the maps of Hyrule in OOT and TP, you will notice that the castle was off-center to the north of Hyrule Field in OOT and dead-center in Hyrule Field in TP. That's not the same location. It is logical that it would be about the same distance from Death Mountain if the castle was moved to the center of Hyrule Field. Also, the castle was much closer to Zora's Domain in TP, and it was far away on the other side of Hyrule Field in OOT. This is another indicator that the castle and town were rebuilt elsewhere. It was rebuilt, and there's stronger evidence that it was, since we see Hyrule Castle Town's ruins during the duel between Link and the Skull Kid in TP just before the Skull Kid opens the way to the Temple of Time's ruins. If you remember correctly, the Temple of Time was just a short walk off the main square of Hyrule Castle Town, which is exactly how it appeared following Link's duel with the Skull Kid. The arena they fought in was most likely once the main square of Hyrule Castle Town. Hero of Time 87 21:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that even if Hyrule Castle was moved, it would have to have been moved north, not south. Why? Because if the old castle was further north overall in Hyrule, then if its ruins are at one of the southernmost points, then that would mean that for the castle to be roughly in the center, the entire country would have had to have moved north. Therefore, all of the Kokiri lands would no longer be accessable in TP, and Death Mountain, Lake Hylia, & Zora's Domain all moved north.M. H. Avril 21:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The directions could also have been reversed. If you notice, Zora's Domain is in the north (as well as Lake Hylia) in TP and both are in the south in OOT. There's grounds that the directions of the maps' directions have been reversed. That would still be in keeping with the new location of Hyrule Castle being in the center of Hyrule Field. The castle was just moved to the center of Hyrule Field and the directions of the maps of Hyrule were reversed from north-south to south-north. And as far as the Kokiri lands go, if you look closely, Link's house in TP has striking similarities to the house his ancestor, the Hero of Time, lived in during OOT. Also, Ordon Village bears many strking similarities to the Kokiri Forest. The most likely case scenario is that the Ordona Province was once the Kokiri Forest, since the Hero of Time's descendant was still living there. Hero of Time 87 22:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

But Ordon Village cannot be Kokiri Village if the ruins are Hyrule Castle Town, because Ordon Village and the ruins are very close, while Kokiri Forest and Hyrule Castle Town are far away, so even if the directions changed, the scale of distance couldn't have. M. H. Avril 22:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I think the best solution to the dispute is to say that it very possible that the ruins are Hyrule Castle Town, and agree that the locations of things have been (and probably will continue to be) changed for asthetic reasons. M. H. Avril 22:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but I also believe in connecting the games if and whenever possible. I go with the most likely scenario until something else that seems more likely emerges. And at this point, it is the most likely scenario that the ruins are Hyrule Castle Town's. It is the scenario that has the strongest evidence supporting it. Hero of Time 87 22:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I would agree with the north-south flip, but that would mean that Gerudo Desert would be in the new Eastern direction, which is wrong by the fact that the mirrored-to-the-Wii Gamecube version (with the map looking similar to Oot) is considered correct. Also, if they are the true ruins, then why does Link go through a portal to get to the Temple of Time if it is supposedly there? And by the way, I have to leave my house now, so I'll have to come back and respond later. M. H. Avril 22:42, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say that the east and west directions were reversed, just the north and south. Their directions in Hyrule likely are different from those in this world. I'm saying the north and south directions to us, as gamers, were reversed, but not the east and the west. The north and the south were reversed in the world of Hyrule itself. It was already there, that was merely a time portal that teleported him back to when the temple stood like it did in OOT. That was the Temple of Time that he visited in the present and he traveled back in time through that portal, not to another location. That's common knowledge. It was the same location, just at a different point in time once he stepped through the Door of Time and traveled back 100 years to when the Temple of Time stood tall like in the days of his ancestor, the Hero of Time. Hero of Time 87 22:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

You are forgetting that geography changes over time, and we're talking a CENTURY. Got that? 100 years. A LOT can change in 100 years. And you forget that the Lost Woods had portals all over it to different places in Hyrule. You forget that it even had a place that led to Death Mountain and Zora's Domain once. Those woods are likely to have drastically changed in a century. You need to open your mind up to the possibilities because that's being realistic. Lon Lon Ranch had long since been destroyed and Hyrule Castle was rebuilt over it. And no, old Kakariko would have still been in the right place near the mountain, but the mountain's geography had also changed over the course of the century as well. I suggest that the Death Mountain is the one and same, but has changed over a century, which is common even in our world over along period of time. And as I said, Ordon could be the Kokiri Forest still. There's nothing that says that it can't, and it seems to fit the mold. And the Sacred Grove fits every description of the old Hyrule Castle Town and the Temple of Time being right near it. The evidence that the Sacred Grove is the old Castle Town is incontrivertible. It fits all descriptions, and it doesn't take a genius to see that Hyrule Castle is in a different location, as is Hyrule Castle Town, in TP as opposed to OOT. Just compare the OOT and TP maps, and you'll see. It even says in the manual for the game that Link was "warped back in time to when the Sacred Grove was a more splendid place." That suggests that the Sacred Grove was once a bustling and beautiful area and had a past. In reality, it's "too big a leap" to accept that the Temple of Time was just uprooted and moved to an abandoned area of the expanding Lost Woods. That's not logical or rational at all, and the evidence is present that the Sacred Grove was once Hyrule Castle Town.Hero of Time 87 03:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, thinking logically, I would say that Kokiri Forest is not next to the original Hyrule Castle. Also, I would normally disagree with a mountain changing that much in 100 years (geologically speaking, that's not much time), but I will agree with you this time because it is an active volcano. M. H. Avril 04:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, you forget that their geology in Hyrule is likely different from that of our world. Several of you are comparing it to our world. Look at Narnia: time there flows quite differently from our world's, and the geology there was quite different as well as the laws that governed nature. Cair Paravel, for example, was on a peninsula at one point in time, then an island at another. The same likely goes for Hyrule. And yes, Death Mountain is an active volcano that is constantly changing. Even if it wasn't there's still the likelihood that it would have changed due to Hyrule's constantly changing landscape. And yes, Kokiri Forest's remains could have expanded toward the remains of Hyrule Castle Town. Forests change all the time, and a century in Hyrule would likely have climbed to that region. You have to start thinking outside the box, because this is a land of magic that isn't governed by all the laws of our world. Yes, it mirrors our world's own laws likely, but there are key differences as well. Hero of Time 87 04:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

If it was badly damaged enough there would be ALL the reason to abandon it. You continue to disregard that it was still attacked by Ganondorf. And yes, Narnia is a perfect example of how worlds of magic behave differently from our own. And a mountain shifting is typical of geologic activity, in case you didn't know. And in Hyrule, it's possible that it shifted like that. And you are incorrect about the Sacred Grove being Kokiri Forest, b/c anyone can see that there was once a city there (Hyrule Castle Town), and the Kokiri Forest wasn't "splendid" by any means. Hyrule Castle Town was. And again, I told you that in regards to maps, the directions of Hyrule for North and South were likely switched. There was no reason to "move" the Temple of Time, and it doesn't seem physically possible, nor logically plausible. The evidence is there that the Sacred Grove was once Hyrule Castle Town, making it the most likely possibility. And again, you ignore the likelihood that the Lost Woods/Kokiri Forest expanded most likely to new areas. And you forget that the Lost Woods took people to other places in Hyrule, meaning that the area Link traversed in the Lost Woods while battling the Skull Kid may have taken him to another part of Hyrule where the old Castle Town once stood. There's a number of possibilities, but you need to start thinking outside the box and start trying to be logical. It's not logical to uproot a massive temple to hide it away in a lost forest, but it is logical to rebuild a civilization elsewhere due to heavy damage from an attack. Kakariko Village was proof of that. Ordon bears striking similarities to Kokiri Forest, and the Sacred Grove bears great similarities to the old Hyrule Castle Town. I maintain that the most likely possibilities are that the Sacred Grove is the remains of Hyrule Castle Town while Ordon Village was once the Kokiri Forest. Hero of Time 87 02:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Melanie Rachel Ravenswood 21:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)Hmm I believe that the Hyrulians moved up north and the Lost Wood's grew up around Hyrule castle town and the Temple of Time, I also believe that the Twilight Princess Death Mountain is a new one.

But if you think that it's logical for a mountain to shift miles away in only a century, and it's logical to abandon a perfectly good city (it is never stated that Ganondorf attacked Hyrule Castle Town in the alternate-child-timeline), and it's also logical disregard an entire place full of magical elf-children, fairies, and a giant, sentient tree as "not splendid by any means". M. H. Avril 23:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Melanie Rachel Ravenswood 18:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Well mabey there was like a earthquake that ruined hyrule, It destoryed the first Death Moutain and Castle town and kokriki forest and pretty much everywhere, So they moved up north finding snowy mountains in the process, And a new active volcano.

Why don't you go watch Ganondorf's Execution again, Fused Shadow, (courtesy of the Imprisoning War Discussion Page), and then come back and tell me there's no evidence that Ganondorf attacked????? ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVYggDnaJgY  Hero of Time 87 14:09, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You are blind if you are trying to ignore the beginning part, showing him on his steed DURING the attack on Hyrule, where it specifically states that "he was the leader of a tribe of thieves that invaded Hyrule in the hope of establishing dominion over the Sacred Realm." I suggest that you either re-view the video and view the most important part of the Sages' historical speech, or come to accept that he did indeed invade Hyrule and attack Hyrule Castle Town and Hyrule Castle to claim the Ocarina of Time. Their account of his attack on Hyrule proves that what I have been telling you is right, so I would hope you would accept that by now. Hero of Time 87 01:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Then please do not insult my intelligence by trying to ignore the most important piece of evidence that has ever been presented on this issue. And that means more conflict between the two sides (with both ready to fight this time), and thus MORE DESTRUCTION. And you seem to forget that most of the Hylian Army was near the castle and protecting the Hylian Royalty, just as they were in Twilight Princess during Zant's invasion. They likely fought through Hyrule Castle Town and destroyed a good portion of it as they tried to take the castle the second time. And they likely did much damage, as is shown behind Ganondorf when we see him in the flashback shown by the Sages. While they likely got to the castle, they were beaten back and defeated this time because the Ancient Sages along with the Hylian Army were ready to defend the King of Hyrule and Princess Zelda this time. So I see no further reason for you to dispute what is very apparent from both Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time. Hero of Time 87 02:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Has it not occurred yet to you that the new castle looks NOTHING like the original Hyrule Castle? And that it's in a COMPLETELY different location in Twilight Princess? They are NOT the same place. And again, you are ignoring the fact that the Gerudo were already inside Hyrule Castle because Ganondorf was pledging false allegiance to the King of Hyrule, and Zelda and Link were watching him again at the end of OOT. And you forget that fire can do more damage than anything, and we see the town in flames the first time when Zelda flees, meaning that they likely set fire to the town and destroyed much of it that way the second tme. We also see flames and destruction behind Ganondorf in the flashback. They also likely did extensive damage to the castle because they were already inside it. They were likely beaten back the second time since the Hylian Army was ready to fight that time around, but did extensive damage to the castle during the fighting nonetheless. The evidence clearly supports that Ganondorf and his supporters did extensive damage to the castle and the town (even destroying Lon Lon Ranch) and that the castle was rebuilt in a completely different location, along with the town (right over where Lon Lon Ranch once stood most likely). You cannot deny any longer that that is indeed the most likely scenario of any.

Also, on a side note, it is "Gerudo," not "Gerudos." If you remember, the carpenters state "We don't care about the 'Gerudo' anymore. They're so rude!" So the correct term for both singular and plural when referring to the Gerudo Tribe is just the "Gerudo". Hero of Time 87 02:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I seriously think you are in denial that I have provided all the necessary evidence to prove my statements. THEY WERE SPEAKING OF HIS INVASION OF HYRULE AT THE MOMENT THAT SCENE OF HIM ON HIS HORSE WAS SHOWN! That was the invasion, and of course it's going to look like he did in Ocarina of Time, because it was the same invasion. Seriously, I think you need to start accepting that the invasion did take place and that he did attack the castle, as has been evidenced. You need to start trying to be reasonable and try to direct the debating toward other mysteries that haven't yet been solved, like what really happened to Ganondorf after Twilight Princess, rather than waste time trying to tear down something that has already been proven. Hero of Time 87 04:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)